_e10 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Hi, I have some questions regarding a2a radars which we use in DCS. I am aware that there are different types but I guess my questions are rather generic. Lets assume we want to lock a target to fire a SARH missile. Our radar switches from search mode to STT and then into some kind of tracking mode. All those 3 modes are detected differently on the enemy RWR. Question1: What is the difference between STT and the mode in which the radar guides the missile? Is it the same but with more energy (or shorter pulses) being used? If so, why is the latter mode not being used for STT? I assume energy saving is no high priority? Question2: How long does the radar stay in this tracking mode? How does it know that the missible is dead and it can return to another mode? Is there a data link for each missile and when this link is down the plane assumes the missile is dead? Question3: Is it possible to manually enable tracking mode without shooting a missile? Could be used to spoof launches (in bad weather conditions) and to force the enemy defensive without "wasting" a missile. Thanks for reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 STT is Single Target Track. ARH missiles like AMRAAM have a 2-way link that tells the firer when the ARH head has locked, I guess for SARH the radar just waits until the target explodes and disappears off scope. http://www.tscm.com/rdr-mode.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimbac Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Hi, I have some questions regarding a2a radars which we use in DCS. I am aware that there are different types but I guess my questions are rather generic. Lets assume we want to lock a target to fire a SARH missile. Our radar switches from search mode to STT and then into some kind of tracking mode. All those 3 modes are detected differently on the enemy RWR. Question1: What is the difference between STT and the mode in which the radar guides the missile? Is it the same but with more energy (or shorter pulses) being used? If so, why is the latter mode not being used for STT? I assume energy saving is no high priority? There is no difference. The only thing different is the radar generating a datalink channel for the missile. Question2: How long does the radar stay in this tracking mode? How does it know that the missible is dead and it can return to another mode? Is there a data link for each missile and when this link is down the plane assumes the missile is dead? As long as the target can be tracked. In general, the radar is just one of the sensors. The computers aboard the aircraft are the "brain". For the rest of your question, that is correct, more or less. Question3: Is it possible to manually enable tracking mode without shooting a missile? Could be used to spoof launches (in bad weather conditions) and to force the enemy defensive without "wasting" a missile. Thanks for reading! Yes it is, but not in DCS :smilewink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimbac Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 STT is Single Target Track. ARH missiles like AMRAAM have a 2-way link that tells the firer when the ARH head has locked, I guess for SARH the radar just waits until the target explodes and disappears off scope. http://www.tscm.com/rdr-mode.pdfUsually, there is only a 1-way datalink, only the most modern (and most expensive) missiles have 2-way datalinks. In the former case the aircraft only computes the time when the ARH seeker goes active. In the latter case, the missile can send the information it has acquired a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 SA-2 launchers had a spoofing ability as one SR-71 pilot recalled. They could pretend to be talking to a missile, but if the missile replied back, then you had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 There is no difference. The only thing different is the radar generating a datalink channel for the missile. But not every (most?) SARH missile has a data link capabilitie or do they? :huh: What SARH missiles have data link? A data link is not really needed for a SARH missile as it just homes in on the reflected radar energy of the target, or not? Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimbac Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) But not every (most?) SARH missile has a data link capabilitie or do they? What SARH missiles have data link? A data link is not really needed for a SARH missile as it just homes in on the reflected radar energy of the target, or not?That's right, the datalink is not a requirement (as a matter of fact, for any missile) but it allows the missile to be launched at longer ranges and also increases the hit probability because the seeker has to be on in terminal phase only. The prime example is the R-27ER (AA-10C). If no datalink is used/available, the missile still homes in on the reflected radar signal - then there is no difference in radar operation. On the other hand, if you get locked in STT by enemy radar, you always have to assume the missile launch is imminent or in progress. Edited January 3, 2019 by Bimbac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_e10 Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 Thanks guys, always great to see how much knowledge this forum provides :) There is no difference. The only thing different is the radar generating a datalink channel for the missile. So the RWR detects the communication plane<->missile via datalink and assumes a missile is active? That means if the missile does not have DL there is no way for a RWR to differ between STT and an active missile? Are there many aircrafts capable of spoofing launches? I assume that would be a powerful tactic. If not, why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederf Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 RWR condition for warning of launch is up to operator. Sometimes it is as simple as lock signal strength very high (close, within possible range). Even if RWR may attempt to discover actual launch by signal operator may choose to assume launch based on lock strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) Thanks guys, always great to see how much knowledge this forum provides So the RWR detects the communication plane<->missile via datalink and assumes a missile is active? That means if the missile does not have DL there is no way for a RWR to differ between STT and an active missile? DL can't be detected by the RWR. I've got the feeling that multiple things get mixed up here. I'm also interested in the OP's question, so I will try to rephrase it: When I get locked by an enemy aircraft my RWR will warn me of that lock. Now, what is when the enemy aircraft, that has locked me up, will shoot a non-DL-capable SARH missile at me? Will I get a missile warning on my RWR? If so, how does the RWR know about the missile? Edited January 4, 2019 by QuiGon Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 DL can't be detected by the RWR. I've got the feeling that multiple things get mixed up here. I'm also interested in the OP's question, so I will try to rephrase it: When I get locked by an enemy aircraft my RWR will warn me of that lock. Now, what is when the enemy aircraft, that has locked me up, will shoot a non-DL-capable SARH missile at me? Will I get a missile warning on my RWR? If so, how does the RWR know about the missile? Surely it's the MAWS/MLD that detects that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimbac Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) So the RWR detects the communication plane<->missile via datalink and assumes a missile is active? That means if the missile does not have DL there is no way for a RWR to differ between STT and an active missile? Are there many aircrafts capable of spoofing launches? I assume that would be a powerful tactic. If not, why is that?It's not that simple. Only the most modern and advanced EW systems can detect the M-links. As I have written before, there is no way to tell for the RWR the missile is underway, so everytime you get locked in STT, you could be fired upon. That's the reason why the STT lock is considered a hostile act/intent in general ROE. I cannot answer the rest of your question. RWR condition for warning of launch is up to operator. Sometimes it is as simple as lock signal strength very high (close, within possible range). Even if RWR may attempt to discover actual launch by signal operator may choose to assume launch based on lock strength.It's not about the strength, signal modulation, and PRF would be more relevant. DL can't be detected by the RWR. I've got the feeling that multiple things get mixed up here. I'm also interested in the OP's question, so I will try to rephrase it: When I get locked by an enemy aircraft my RWR will warn me of that lock. Now, what is when the enemy aircraft, that has locked me up, will shoot a non-DL-capable SARH missile at me? Will I get a missile warning on my RWR? If so, how does the RWR know about the missile? It can. The rest has been answered above. Surely it's the MAWS/MLD that detects that.No, MAWS works differently. It's based on the detection of the IR/UV rocket motor characteristics, unique to the missile - it cannot recognize the difference between enemy and friendly missiles, so in intense close combat, there would be many false alarms - comms discipline with the appropriate Fox calls could reduce the problem at the expense of the increased pilot's workout. Edited January 4, 2019 by Bimbac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_e10 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 DL can't be detected by the RWR. Yeah I was not clear, I was referring to the whole system, not only the RWR. But you matched my question, so thanks for rephrasing :) @Bimbac: Thank you very much for the explaination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 While we're on the topic of warning equipment, why is it that there is no altitude indication (i.e. the transmitter is above or below you) for RWR's? We have the ability to compare radar signal strength in between port and starboard, front and back but why is there no RWR pair for the top and bottom of the aircraft? I have had no luck finding any mathematical derivation for the RWR sorting algorithm or any kind of article for this question online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimbac Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 While we're on the topic of warning equipment, why is it that there is no altitude indication (i.e. the transmitter is above or below you) for RWR's? We have the ability to compare radar signal strength in between port and starboard, front and back but why is there no RWR pair for the top and bottom of the aircraft? I have had no luck finding any mathematical derivation for the RWR sorting algorithm or any kind of article for this question online. The reason is quite simple. The airframe is relatively small, and RWR is not the only system which needs antennae to function :) Besides, the interferometers need to scan quite a broad spectrum at the expense of accuracy. You should see the RWR as an aid to point your radar or other sensors in the right direction so you could acquire the target and as an Early warning device. There are ways to use the Electronic Warfare suite in more advanced forms, but since it's classified, I can't say anything more. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacab Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Depending on the missile seeker it may need a specific waveform to guide (for instance the seeker may rely on CW illumination of its target). Upon detection of this waveform the RWR will issue a launch warning. I was explained that's how the launch warning work in the F-16 for instance. If the missile home without requiring a specific waveform then you should'nt have a launch warning, you'll only know that you are locked. However if the RWR detects a missile emiter then it will display this emitter (likely as the most urgent threat to deal with). More elaborate logic might be used than this simple one but that's a good start to begin to understand RWR. An other way to detect a missile launch is through a dedicated device that monitor the IR signature of rocket engine. (the mirage in dcs has this feature). However I read somewhere that those where prone to high false alarm rate and therefor not as useful as they might be. Envoyé de mon G8441 en utilisant Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Depends on the equipment. For example one of the eagle's wing antennae is split so it can make some form of altitude determination. Not all aircraft have this. While we're on the topic of warning equipment, why is it that there is no altitude indication (i.e. the transmitter is above or below you) for RWR's? We have the ability to compare radar signal strength in between port and starboard, front and back but why is there no RWR pair for the top and bottom of the aircraft? I have had no luck finding any mathematical derivation for the RWR sorting algorithm or any kind of article for this question online. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 No, MAWS works differently. It's based on the detection of the IR/UV rocket motor characteristics, unique to the missile - it cannot recognize the difference between enemy and friendly missiles, so in intense close combat, there would be many false alarms - comms discipline with the appropriate Fox calls could reduce the problem at the expense of the increased pilot's workout. Not all MAWS is IR/UV based. E.g. the Typhoon uses a radar-based MAWS. The direction of travel indicates whether it is a threat or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 The reason is quite simple. The airframe is relatively small, and RWR is not the only system which needs antennae to function :) Besides, the interferometers need to scan quite a broad spectrum at the expense of accuracy. You should see the RWR as an aid to point your radar or other sensors in the right direction so you could acquire the target and as an Early warning device. There are ways to use the Electronic Warfare suite in more advanced forms, but since it's classified, I can't say anything more. Sorry. Thank you for the answer! Do you mean to say that more antennae would decrease accuracy? As I understand, you would have identical antennae and they would all be capable of receiving signals from the same bandwidth so you would not be increasing detectable bandwidth anyway from adding more of the same antenna. Did I misunderstand? Depends on the equipment. For example one of the eagle's wing antennae is split so it can make some form of altitude determination. Not all aircraft have this. So I gather it's more of a practical thing rather than being physically impossible. I also thought to myself yesterday that the 4 antennae are the minimum number you need as you can easily bank 90 degrees and determine attitude from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimbac Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Thank you for the answer! Do you mean to say that more antennae would decrease accuracy? As I understand, you would have identical antennae and they would all be capable of receiving signals from the same bandwidth so you would not be increasing detectable bandwidth anyway from adding more of the same antenna. Did I misunderstand? So I gather it's more of a practical thing rather than being physically impossible. I also thought to myself yesterday that the 4 antennae are the minimum number you need as you can easily bank 90 degrees and determine attitude from there.No, what I meant was that there is limited space on the airframe and some distance between the various systems' antennae is desirable to ensure correct functioning, not mentioning the space for the multiple systems under the surface or the excess weight. The required wavelength dictates the size of the antenna - it can't be random, or "made to fit," and the position is critical too - to allow the proper function. Your conclusions are correct, more or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrya Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) I have had no luck finding any mathematical derivation for the RWR sorting algorithm or any kind of article for this question online. There are a lot, you just need to look at the right place :P This sound like shameless self-advertising, but if you are interested in radar and RWR, I am sure this will entertain you https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/ Edited January 8, 2019 by garrya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_e10 Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 There are a lot, you just need to look at the right place :P This sound like shameless self-advertising, but if you are interested in radar and RWR, I am sure this will entertain you https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/ Awesome reading, thank you very much! :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShackleford Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 There are a lot, you just need to look at the right place :P This sound like shameless self-advertising, but if you are interested in radar and RWR, I am sure this will entertain you https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/ This link is fantastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) While we're on the topic of warning equipment, why is it that there is no altitude indication (i.e. the transmitter is above or below you) for RWR's? You have that data (above/ below) on SPO-15 Russian RWR, fitted to Flanker and MiG-29 in DCS. Also earlier people questioned the ability of RWR to detect missile link. But what the RWR can recognize isn't just a matter of antennas, it's a matter of intelligence. You have to teach the RWR what signal to identify and the corresponding alert to display in the cockpit. Off course RWR can record for post action analysis. But recording a fighter to missile link is certainly not an easy task... Also different radars can be ambiguous for RWR (like between MiG-29 and Su-27 for instance, even if these are not the same radar). Edited January 9, 2019 by jojo Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 But recording a fighter to missile link is certainly not an easy task... Why not? It's transmitted on the radar sidelobes by the radar itself, on the same frequencies. RWRs were capable of dealing with them back when the command signals were completely separate as well. Also different radars can be ambiguous for RWR (like between MiG-29 and Su-27 for instance, even if these are not the same radar). I don't believe they should be, for a bunch of reasons. But I could easily be wrong. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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