Black Shark 3?

[Weta43]

if there will be a flir, i would pay. otherwise not willing to pay for only igla

 

Then I'm sure you'll be happy enjoying the new cockpit of your existing module, and be here thanking E.D. for the free upgrade you received.

[3WA]

Yeah, Igla and that third pylon REALLY should have been there to begin with. But you have to admit, getting the MLWS is a very nice edition too, and will come in VERY handy when flying low near buildings.

 

 

DAM THOSE PESKY STINGERS! That and having to take your hand off the cyclic to reach the $#&&!!!! flare button!

[joshloar10]

what is this third pylon everyone is talking about? I have never seen a picture of a KA-50 (Not KA-52) with any third pylon. the outermost part is just for countermeasures.

[AlphaOneSix]

The Ka-50 doesn't have the third pylon. Only the Ka-52. And yes the wingtip is just an aerodynamic fairing containing the flare dispensers.

[3WA]

The selector on the cyclic sure screams otherwise.

[Weta43]

You can't prove a negative through a lack of evidence, but a positive is easy.

All you have to do is find a photo of Ka-50 bort #25 (apparently the only one ever fitted with a functioning MLWS ) with the third pylon fitted & that would end the argument.

 

edit:

 

https://www.net-maquettes.com/pictures/kamov-ka-50-hokum-walkaround/

Edited June 2, 2019 by Weta43

[joshloar10]

the pictures that are in the portfolio just posted only have 4 pylons total (2 on each side) I still don't see this mysterious 3rd pylon. even the cockpit only has 4 pylons shown on the weapons panel.

[joshloar10]

more from the same portfolio

[joshloar10]

Every source out there lists 4

[joshloar10]

For those of you that believe this line drawing is correct,

 

1st, the wingtip fairing is riveted on, including the fins on the bottom and top. they aren't going to drill out rivets and put new ones in everytime they want a "3rd pylon"

 

2nd, the wingtip fairing and its fins are made of fiberglass. Fiberglass is not a good support for any kind of heavy loads, especially ones that are hanging from it where the CG of the weight versus the attach point is so high.

 

3rd, there is no visible place to attach cannon plugs, or anything of that sort for the electronics to "talk" to a detachable pylon.

 

PS. don't take this the wrong way, meant to be a friendly debate :) If someone can provide a real picture, ill gladly stand corrected

Edited June 2, 2019 by joshloar10

[3WA]

even the cockpit only has 4 pylons shown on the weapons panel.

 

 

And yet, on the Cyclic, the four way pylon selector switch shows an A-A only selection. And the way it's layed out, Inner-Outer-All-A-A, looks like it's meant to select a third pylon. Why would there be an all, if there wasn't a third pylon made for A-A only? All should only be used if your carrying four rocket pods. A-A looks like it's special, and meant to select the third pylon. Then, on the Ka-52, which appears to have the same wing stubs as the Ka-50, there is a third pylon. With the Ka-52 having come from the prototype of the Ka-50, it appears a modern Ka-50 would have 3 pylons on each wing, as it's just a single pilot version of the Ka-52.

 

 

(Borrowing the pic of the cyclic from Fri13)

 

 

 

The Ka-50 was just a prototype of the Ka-52, and never put into production. So, in order to see what it would have looked like had it been produced, you have to look at the Ka-52.

 

 

The literal problem with what is "Real" is that this copter was never anything but an Experiment! That in the end, resulted in the Ka-52.

 

 

Here you see an early Ka-52 with only 4 stations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I swear I once had a pic showing a Ka-50 with the third pylon. Unfortunately, I can't find it now, as it was years ago. Probably was a mock up.

 

 

But as you can see, Ka-50 and early Ka-52 were all just wild experiments. So, the most "Realistic" you can get as to what it probably would have ended up as, is the Production Ka-52, albeit a single seat.

Edited June 2, 2019 by 3WA

[joshloar10]

I'm pretty sure the AA position activates electronics which would be used only in AA situations. It is impossible for a desktop computer to simulate every Capacitor in in aircraft. Some things are simplified but work "correctly". There are lots of backround computer systems behind the scenes that no one knows about. It would also make sense that the designers thought "well, if we don't need all these AA computer systems working all the time, how about we disengage them and save some engine power (it takes hp to turn a generator) and have a selector to turn them on." just because something can be interpreted as a "3rd Pylon" doesn't mean that is what it is. I haven't seen any solid proof of any 3rd pylon on the Ka-50, prototype or not. The only way I could see a 3rd pylon would be to take off the wingtip fairing alltogether

Edited June 2, 2019 by joshloar10

[martinistripes]

For those of you that believe this line drawing is correct,

 

1st, the wingtip fairing is riveted on, including the fins on the bottom and top. they aren't going to drill out rivets and put new ones in everytime they want a "3rd pylon"

 

2nd, the wingtip fairing and its fins are made of fiberglass. Fiberglass is not a good support for any kind of heavy loads, especially ones that are hanging from it where the CG of the weight versus the attach point is so high.

 

3rd, there is no visible place to attach cannon plugs, or anything of that sort for the electronics to "talk" to a detachable pylon.

 

PS. don't take this the wrong way, meant to be a friendly debate :) If someone can provide a real picture, ill gladly stand corrected

 

We've had no confirmation of a third pylon yet and going by the above post, they must be fitted in place of the Vikhr (much to many's disappointment I'm sure). I can't imagine ED are going to let us fit them to a riveted fibreglass fairing. Anyway, we'll all know soon enough.

[Fri13]

I'm pretty sure the AA position activates electronics which would be used only in AA situations. It is impossible for a desktop computer to simulate every Capacitor in in aircraft. Some things are simplified but work "correctly". There are lots of backround computer systems behind the scenes that no one knows about. It would also make sense that the designers thought "well, if we don't need all these AA computer systems working all the time, how about we disengage them and save some engine power (it takes hp to turn a generator) and have a selector to turn them on." just because something can be interpreted as a "3rd Pylon" doesn't mean that is what it is. I haven't seen any solid proof of any 3rd pylon on the Ka-50, prototype or not. The only way I could see a 3rd pylon would be to take off the wingtip fairing alltogether

 

We are talking about weapons pylon selector here, not the programming of the selected weapon pylon.

 

Vikhr is only connectable to the outer pylon. And everything else can be set on inner or outer pylons.

 

When you select to use inner or outer by tilting the selector hat to outer or inner mode, everything is changed by the specs of the weapon. So you do not select weapon and then select the master mode but it is automatic.

 

If you select outer pylon that has Vikhr hanging, you start ATGM master mode. And now you can program the Vikhr for A-A mode or moving ground target with the weapon panel front of the collective. But you don't need to active ATGM master mode.

 

If you have two S-8 rocket pods hanging on inner pylons, you switch to rocket master mode by selecting inner mode. But now you as well have programming capabilities elsewhere like at the right rear panel where you select the rocket type and environmental temperature for the computer calculate correct trajectory.

 

The same thing is with the cannon. You flip the cannon trigger and you are in cannon master mode, but you can program the cannon burst length, used shell and cannon properties (automatic, tracking, fixed etc) from the front bottom panel.

 

So what is the logic that the pilot would use a pylon selector for special A-A mode, instead already existing outer/inner selector, if the IGLA is replacing Vikhr? What the IGLA has that requires programming special way in a Master Mode selection, but nothing in the dedicated type program (rockets, cannon, Vikhr)?

 

It doesn't make sense at all that if only master mode would be changed, then it should be enough just to pilot switch to outer pylon and master mode is set to A-A mode and no extra configuration panels are required as there is nothing to program. So the whole A-A pylon selector in collective is obsolete. Don't you think that the pilot knows that he has IGLA's at the outer pylon instead Vikhr?

 

If the IGLA offers some programming (like cannon, rockets, Vikhr etc) then there should be a panel to do so. It wouldn't be enough to just select a pylon and hit a A-A mode, as you can't use IGLA for anything else.

 

The A-A selector in the collective is not logical for the Vikhr use either, as the Vikhr has the special A-A mode that needs to be programmed before launch. That sets the Vikhr use a second fragmentation sleeve and proximity fuze instead impact fuze and tandem charge directed forward to penetrate armor, but that is not done with the pylon selector but the targeting panel at the front of the collective, where you program Vikhr to use A-A mode, change the proximity fuze timing if target is head-on etc. So again the collective switch is obsolete for that, or those different programming settings in the front are obsolete as the A-A selector does it all (and again, it doesn't do it as you need the programming features that are already in front).

 

It doesn't have any logic that you have in collective a pylon selector that does three things:

 

Inner station

Outer station

All stations

 

And then you would have one extra "A-A mode".

 

Like why the three station selectors for four pylons, and then special A-A mode, for what? In what master mode? What happens if you have Vikhr loaded? Nothing? What happens if you have rockets? Cannon?

 

The Kamov designers had logic to make the KA-50 very much automated helicopter to fly and combat. So when the pilot selects a pylon, the computer automatically detects what is there and change master mode in HUD and Shkval for that weapon parameters in the default properties. If there are some special things to program, pilot does it.

 

Cannon has physical switches as they are meant to be stored settings between switching weapons. So you don't go from short burst to long burst if you switch between cannon and Vikhr, as both use the same setting.

The Vikhr A-A mode is a digital one, so if the case appears you can enable it, but if you switch to rockets or cannon and then back to Vikhr, its A-A mode is disabled so you don't accidentally launch Vikhr against primary targets in wrong warhead configuration.

 

How logical it is for Kamov engineer to set a weapon station selector switch to have a fourth option for a mode, that doesn't change the station?

 

The famous R-73 hanging is own thing as well, it was meant to be in the inner or outer pylons, IIRC there were pictures of R-73 on the inner pylon. And again you would choose that simply by using inner station switch, no need for a special A-A switch.

 

If the A-A missile requires a special computer booting etc, then what happens if the pilot accidentally selects the A-A weapon station with inner/outer mode? Gets killed by not having the weapon ready.

 

Again it would be very confusing and dangerous for the pilot, and defy the logic of the Kamov engineers otherwise set cockpit.

 

So what would this mystic A-A mode really do?

Would it set some kind a cannon mode so you can have cannon as the IR missiles ready to fired simultaneously? Again blocked by the physical cyclic cannon trigger.

 

Would it have a special IR missile seeker cooling timer set?

Would it have a IR seeker to track HMD monocule, allowing the pilot just look at the target and launch at it? That would make lots of sense, but again you need to setup HMD first manually by taking it down, instead flipping HMD Power switch on panel like in DCS now. So two phases, power it and take it down to use it.

 

Or how about this possibility, there is no such thing as A-A mode? That is imagination of the ED developer, it was not to be implemented, so why not just set there something? Maybe it was meant to be "Switch stations one by one", as you could fly with one side having Vikhr, other side having S-13 and then have two kind of S-8 rockets. So instead having Inner/Outer and All, you as well could select one station at the time?

[joshloar10]

^^ this all makes sense, im not a weapons specialist so im not entirely sure on what its for. I'm a civilian aircraft mechanic so I do know how general airframes work, the only thing I'm pretty sure on is the AA switch is not a magical "3rd Pylon" There is no structural point for a pylon to go other then the 4 that is already there.

[amalahama]

Somebody commented Shkval-N with an IR sensor existed in RL and was fitted in some Ka-50 prototypes. Is it true? Not the Ka-50Sh abomination with the suplementary EO/IR turret, but a complete upgrade of the Shkval system

[3WA]

And see, this is the problem. THIS COPTER WAS AN EXPERIMENT OVER MANY VARIATONS. IT WAS NEVER PRODUCED. Except as the Ka-52. The End Result. The Ka-52 is just a 2 seat version of what would have been the finished Ka-50. The Russians figured in the end, it was just too much for one person to handle. So, they added an extra seat.

 

 

What I want is a FINISHED, PRODUCTION Ka-50. The cockpit controls point to a third pylon for Igla's (which is on the Ka-52. Go figure!). A-A. All the Experiments show they are interested in FLIR ( because it's really worthless without it ), like on the Ka52! Look at the Ka-52, chop off a seat, and there's your production Ka-50.

 

 

Really tired of unproduced, experimental crap. Make the REAL Ka-50 as it was meant to be! Because either way, it's still a FANTASY copter. It was never produced!

 

 

If it stays in this half finished, experimental state, I don't really know if I'll pay for an "upgrade" or not.

 

 

And if you don't like doing that, then make a Ka-52! The only copter of this line that WAS produced!

Edited June 2, 2019 by 3WA

[Fri13]

Heuuum...

 

Kamov-50 ?

 

Yep sure they deployed 2 helicopters in "operation" in Chechnya... They deployed 2 testbeds/prototypes...

 

:D

 

The two helicopters that went to to war, were production ones. The others were meant to be upgraded to that status, but Kamov didn't have money.

 

And after very successful combat performance, the Mi-28 was given funding and Kamov was cut out. Until past 2000 the military came back to Kamov that they required the co-axial flight capabilities and the performance that KA-50 had, so that KA-50 was put production (same variant as in combat) and KA-52 development was speeded up.

 

This left to situation that few more KA-50's were produced and KA-52 was made over 100 units as it was ready.

 

So somewhere there are couple KA-50's with the latest tech there is. Most of the testbeds etc are left to rust.

[3WA]

Hmm. Interesting. I didn't know that. I'll have to try to find info on that. Yandex might turn something up.

[Fri13]

And see, this is the problem. THIS COPTER WAS AN EXPERIMENT OVER MANY VARIATONS. IT WAS NEVER PRODUCED. Except as the Ka-52. The End Result. The Ka-52 is just a 2 seat version of what would have been the finished Ka-50. The Russians figured in the end, it was just too much for one person to handle. So, they added an extra seat.

 

Funny, as the problem the testers said was that you couldn't get familirization with KA-50 as it was single seater, but the pilots were very satisfied and pleased by the combat performance and capability to be handled alone in high stress environments in low visibility and at mountains.

 

Meaning, it was not too much for a person to handle. And even the KA-50 module shows exactly that, it is more than easy to handle by single pilot.

 

 

What I want is a FINISHED, PRODUCTION Ka-50.

.......

Make the REAL Ka-50 as it was meant to be! Because either way, it's still a FANTASY copter. It was never produced!

 

Based to the MoD (Ministry of Defence) three KA-50 were contracted to be upgrade for the production standard. No. 23, No.25 and No.26. This happened 1st June, 2001. The production standard was based to the feedback the pilots gave after the war, a ABRIS relocation, new CM dispenser algorithms, FLIR and self-defence jammer system (President-S).

 

None of those were in when the ED has got access to the KA-50 back then. And that seems to be now the case that ED has visited the Kamov again where they have got access to the upgraded production ready variant, or at least to the designs.

 

Why we are getting President-S and IGLA, as those were not there when they had access to it. And those were not there when KA-50 went to war trials.

 

 

If it stays in this half finished, experimental state, I don't really know if I'll pay for an "upgrade" or not.

And if you don't like doing that, then make a Ka-52! The only copter of this line that WAS produced!

 

KA-50 was produced, it just got after three versions to be abandoned as KA-52 was ready.

 

There is actually even a possibility that we could see a different kind cockpit avionics order:

 

 

[Stratos]

You saw the 3D model : Shkval, no FLIR ;)

 

They can model the Shkval filters, there is a low luminosity one. Although it obviously won't be as good as a FLIR...

 

Any more info on this, and can ED tell us If something like this is planned?

 

I'm curious to hear, which Ka-50 number carried the stuff being added by ED? Anyone know?

 

Also, can we carry, both Iglas and Vikhr at the same time?

[Fri13]

Any more info on this, and can ED tell us If something like this is planned?

 

I'm curious to hear, which Ka-50 number carried the stuff being added by ED? Anyone know?

 

You can't really know easily that. Why? Because almost all the versions went through different upgrades and testings through their years. You can't pick up one and say that #19 was not so advanced as #21 was. As the #19 might have got a big update after #21 was build, making the #19 better by avionics.

 

Also, can we carry, both Iglas and Vikhr at the same time?

 

That is the key question here now. As if the IGLA is only available to the outer stations, they lose fairly quickly all the advantages to be carried at all. Why? Because the S-8 rockets are not as effective in DCS as they should be.

 

Like read the article about the KA-50 results in the war:

 

Total 76 sorties completed, for total of 63 flight hours.

S-8 rockets were the most frequently used ammunition, with a total of 929 rockets being fired together with some 1600 rounds of cannon ammunition and three Vikhr missiles (there weren't that many targets worth a Vikhr).

 

So you could possibly get away with IGLA + S-8 pods without Vikhr. But as rockets are weak, requiring direct hits and multiple, it is just waste of weight to carry any of them.

[Infernal78]

Stratos. We are getting bort number #25 :)

 

 

https://sfw.so/uploads/posts/2010-05/1274703525_0906933.jpg

[Grodlund]

Stop thinking in Rambomode and bring a couple of wingmen. You can have 16 pylons in squadron.

What did you think all those datalink gizmos was all about? :D

[3WA]

Lol, this chopper was made for James Bond. And that's how I fly it. Screw the Fighters, full speed ahead!

 

 

They should call it Little Nellie.