Throttle trim?

[Akula]

Does anyone know if it's possible to trim the throttle on the Hornet? This would help when doing AAR.

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

Does anyone know if it's possible to trim the throttle on the Hornet? This would help when doing AAR.

 

What do you mean when you say "trim the throttle"? The throttle doesn't center itself, it stays at the setting you give it so trimming it would be redundant. It's possible to set the ATC which will attempt to keep the aircraft at a constant air speed, but that makes the throttle adjust itself forward and backward (you can see it moving in the in-game cockpit), which is like the opposite of trim. You also can't adjust that speed setting up and down like cruise control in a car.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Sergeant_Hamlet
some clarifications

[Sneak_King18]

ATC, also known as cruise control haha. if you get the airspeed of the tanker, i aim for 1-2 knots more than him. allows me to stay with him...if you set auto throttle on, you see it appear on HUD. I can make slight adjustments on my throttle to keep it in a 5 knot range...its hard. im sure my curve is crap, but whatever. I like to give a bit of extra power, then drop back down with air brake. seems to give positive thrust when getting fuel at slow speeds. also use the Nav Marks on your HUD to pick a point on the tanker ( when i get it, i keep whatever is on a hard point on the plane to keep me somewhat lined up. gonna try auto pilot, that might actually be easier now i think about it haha.

[Sneak_King18]

with the wind bug problem, might be a little more difficult. but Auto throttle and BALT you might be able to get it real close then trim rest of the way

[Sneak_King18]

What do you mean when you say "trim the throttle"? The throttle doesn't center itself, it stays at the setting you give it. It's possible to set the ATC which will attempt to keep the aircraft at a constant speed, but you can't adjust that up and down like cruise control in a car.

 

Hamlet, Repersent! NC in the house!:thumbup:

[Akula]

What do you mean when you say "trim the throttle"? The throttle doesn't center itself, it stays at the setting you give it so trimming it would be redundant. It's possible to set the ATC which will attempt to keep the aircraft at a constant air speed, but that makes the throttle adjust itself forward and backward (you can see it moving in the in-game cockpit), which is like the opposite of trim. You also can't adjust that speed setting up and down like cruise control in a car.

 

Trim the throttle, like you can trim your pitch and roll.

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

Trim the throttle, like you can trim your pitch and roll.

 

Well like I said the throttle doesn't have a neutral point that it returns to when you release the controls, so it can't be trimmed like the flight control surfaces can. If you adjust the throttle to set the engines at 90% RPM, they will stay there until you move the throttle again, so you've essentially "trimmed" the engine to 90% RPM.

 

I imagine you're thinking in terms of making small adjustments in airspeed? In that case, the closest you can get is to use the Auto Throttle Control. When you engage the ATC the aircraft will automatically adjust the throttle to maintain its current airspeed. However, because the throttle handle is physically connected to the engine's power lever, moving the throttle manually will override the ATC setting and the ATC will disengage, so it can't really work like cruise control.

 

What I guess you could do is set the ATC, then move the throttle until you get the new airspeed you want, then re-engage the ATC to maintain that new speed. It wouldn't work in real life, but hey, whatever makes life easier. :thumbup:

Edited March 3, 2019 by Sergeant_Hamlet

[Akula]

I’ll try it. I might also try using the default keys on the keyboard. That might give me the tiny adjustments I need.

[Guzzo]

I guess with few hours of practice you can avoid to use any sort of autopilot/ATC in order to complete your AAR.

If catching the boom seems to complicated now, try to keep formation with tanker's wing. As soon as you are able to hold position, then make it more difficult with the boom.

Set your focus on one of the three axis per time, don't try to fix all of three in the same time. As soon as one is stable, move on the next one.

And, last but not least, consider the huge "lag" in engine response for this bird. Start to move throttle early.

Hope this helps!

[FZG_Immel]

You cannot hope to AAR with constant power. Every slight input on the stick will require a correction on the throttle.

 

It's not that difficult. Just practice

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

I would also say that if you have a controller with a good throttle response it will definitely be easier to just practice making the adjustments manually.

[Akula]

Well I don’t know about the Warthog but the Logitech X56 is a little tricky and I suspect that comes from the engines response time on the Hornet which we all know is very slow compared to the F-15.

[sk000tch]

Well like I said the throttle doesn't have a neutral point that it returns to when you release the controls, so it can't be trimmed like the flight control surfaces can. If you adjust the throttle to set the engines at 90% RPM, they will stay there until you move the throttle again, so you've essentially "trimmed" the engine to 90% RPM.

 

I imagine you're thinking in terms of making small adjustments in airspeed? In that case, the closest you can get is to use the Auto Throttle Control. When you engage the ATC the aircraft will automatically adjust the throttle to maintain its current airspeed. However, because the throttle handle is physically connected to the engine's power lever, moving the throttle manually will override the ATC setting and the ATC will disengage, so it can't really work like cruise control.

 

What I guess you could do is set the ATC, then move the throttle until you get the new airspeed you want, then re-engage the ATC to maintain that new speed. It wouldn't work in real life, but hey, whatever makes life easier. :thumbup:

 

Controls don't require a center point to have trim. In fact, trim, by definition, is deviation from a center point. Whether its trim tabs on a cessna that exert an opposite force deflector the control surface in the opposite direction, or the FBW electronic trimming of the Hornet, it is adjusting the aircraft to be in equilibrium at a different state - e.g. trim nose up causes aircraft to pitch up, it will slow down slightly but quickly establish stable equilibrium.

 

Throttles are the same, thrust is in equilibrium with drag. Throttles that have trim, and there are many, are typically just finely tuned adjustments. Like you throttle is coarse adjustment, and the slider fine adjustment.

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

Everything you just said was more or less correct, except for your very first sentence:

 

Controls don't require a center point to have trim. In fact, trim, by definition, is deviation from a center point.

 

Read that again. In order to have deviation from a center point, there has to be a center point.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Sergeant_Hamlet

[Switch625]

Does anyone know if it's possible to trim the throttle on the Hornet? This would help when doing AAR.

 

 

I wonder if you're referring to vernier throttles? Like on cessna where you can push and pull the throttle for coarse adjustments, and then rotate the knob for a finer control?

[speed-of-heat]

@OP Do you mean the curves for the throttle ?

[sk000tch]

Everything you just said was more or less correct, except for your very first sentence:

 

 

 

Read that again. In order to have deviation from a center point, there has to be a center point.

 

OK Fair enough, i was not precise in my choice of words. My sentence should have read "deviation from equilibrium point."

 

Part of this is real life vs. simulation. Sim pilots think about controls differently. Your stick and rudder have a center point, that center point is where a gimbal or spring system causes the control to be when you don't touch it. But all that means is 0,0. Its not connected to anything. The force you feel through the stick or rudder doesn't change. The actual position of the control, like the physical center point of the stick or rudder, doesn't' change. I think because of this trim is viewed differently. I'll try to explain...

 

I have MFG Crosswinds, they are nice rudder pedals, much better than the crap I had before. They work great for DCS, are very finely crafted, but don't feel anything like pedals in any plane i've ever flown. They are dead, not connected to anything. Real pedals are connected to a control surface that you can feel. You can feel wind buffeting the rudder when its gusty, or the gradual decrease in centering force at the top of a hammerhead, the buffeting as you slide back down, and the strong DEcentering force when you roll out. To be fair, I can't say with certainty whether the rudder on every plane i've flown doesn't have a mechanical centering force at rest. Some may. I can't say that its something I have paid that much attention to, and usually there is some steering linkage when on the ground, at least for the rudder.

 

I happen to like traildraggers, a lot. My favorite of which, that i have access to at least, is a sukhoi 29. She is a temperamental high maintenance Russian bitch but I love her and wish she were mine...but that's a different story. On the ramp there is almost zero resistance in the pedals, just a little mechanical resistance and the weight of the rudder. If I push the right pedal to full deflection, lift my foot, it would stay in that position. The rudder has weight and because of the nose high attitude of taildraggers, gravity causes it to fall back toward center, but not all the way. Once that monster soviet radial roars to life, however, the wash from the prop will center the rudder. In the air, aerodynamic force of the wind over the surface makes it feel like there's a centering force (and progressive resistance), like the MFGs try to recreate, but where that center point is located is adjustable by trim. When you trim a rudder, a small tab on the trailing edge is moved, which in turn causes the rudder to deflect slightly in the opposite direction. Is that the center point now? If I take my feet off the pedals, that's where they stay. But the pedals aren't centered? There's just no force required to keep them in that position. In fact, I would have to exert force to cause them to center.

 

That's all trim is. A small aerodynamic change that fine tunes the equilibrium point of the plane. I don't get to fly jets, so I'm talking about tabs. In a Hornet, obviously its a bit different. A- there's no rudder... But more importantly, the FBW system just changes the control surfaces so there's no small control surface balancing forces. The net result is the same, you are fine tuning what the plane does when you let go of the stick and rudder, but that's not necessarily the center point, or mid-point, or whatever word we're going to use.

 

So, whether that is trimming nose up for climb, aileron trim from asymmetric load (or wind bugs), rudder for torque, or thrust against drag to dial in airspeed, its all the same thing... sorta.

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

OK Fair enough, i was not precise in my choice of words. My sentence should have read "deviation from equilibrium point."

 

Part of this is real life vs. simulation. Sim pilots think about controls differently. Your stick and rudder have a center point, that center point is where a gimbal or spring system causes the control to be when you don't touch it. But all that means is 0,0. Its not connected to anything. The force you feel through the stick or rudder doesn't change. The actual position of the control, like the physical center point of the stick or rudder, doesn't' change. I think because of this trim is viewed differently. I'll try to explain...

 

I have MFG Crosswinds, they are nice rudder pedals, much better than the crap I had before. They work great for DCS, are very finely crafted, but don't feel anything like pedals in any plane i've ever flown. They are dead, not connected to anything. Real pedals are connected to a control surface that you can feel. You can feel wind buffeting the rudder when its gusty, or the gradual decrease in centering force at the top of a hammerhead, the buffeting as you slide back down, and the strong DEcentering force when you roll out. To be fair, I can't say with certainty whether the rudder on every plane i've flown doesn't have a mechanical centering force at rest. Some may. I can't say that its something I have paid that much attention to, and usually there is some steering linkage when on the ground, at least for the rudder.

 

I happen to like traildraggers, a lot. My favorite of which, that i have access to at least, is a sukhoi 29. She is a temperamental high maintenance Russian bitch but I love her and wish she were mine...but that's a different story. On the ramp there is almost zero resistance in the pedals, just a little mechanical resistance and the weight of the rudder. If I push the right pedal to full deflection, lift my foot, it would stay in that position. The rudder has weight and because of the nose high attitude of taildraggers, gravity causes it to fall back toward center, but not all the way. Once that monster soviet radial roars to life, however, the wash from the prop will center the rudder. In the air, aerodynamic force of the wind over the surface makes it feel like there's a centering force (and progressive resistance), like the MFGs try to recreate, but where that center point is located is adjustable by trim. When you trim a rudder, a small tab on the trailing edge is moved, which in turn causes the rudder to deflect slightly in the opposite direction. Is that the center point now? If I take my feet off the pedals, that's where they stay. But the pedals aren't centered? There's just no force required to keep them in that position. In fact, I would have to exert force to cause them to center.

 

That's all trim is. A small aerodynamic change that fine tunes the equilibrium point of the plane. I don't get to fly jets, so I'm talking about tabs. In a Hornet, obviously its a bit different. A- there's no rudder... But more importantly, the FBW system just changes the control surfaces so there's no small control surface balancing forces. The net result is the same, you are fine tuning what the plane does when you let go of the stick and rudder, but that's not necessarily the center point, or mid-point, or whatever word we're going to use.

 

So, whether that is trimming nose up for climb, aileron trim from asymmetric load (or wind bugs), rudder for torque, or thrust against drag to dial in airspeed, its all the same thing... sorta.

 

I know that the literal and functional definitions of trim are different. I was just being pedantic :)

[Akula]

@OP Do you mean the curves for the throttle ?

 

No, I mean being able to trim the throttle with a hat switch just like you'd trim pitch and roll. I have already set the curve on the throttle. That said, I'm getting better with AAR but I find it very frustrating that as soon as I hook up I'm flying right through the basket and need to back off my throttle a lot and then push it forward a lot to stay on speed. This is definitely an art and skill because once I'm dialed in, the jet just floats there taking fuel like it is no big deal. Neat but tricky to get into this kind of formation flying. Getting easier but I would still like to have a throttle trim. It would make these things easier.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Akula

[Deano87]

What speed are you trying to refuel at? Also try refueling with the airbrake our a bit and see if it makes your throttle a little more responsive as you’ll be higher in the power range.

[Akula]

What speed are you trying to refuel at? Also try refueling with the airbrake our a bit and see if it makes your throttle a little more responsive as you’ll be higher in the power range.

 

 

Refueling at whatever speed the tanker is at. I am experimenting with the AB while refueling but it's touch and go. Sometimes I find it's easier sometimes not. Usually when I do it successfully I don't use the AB

[Sparky1b09]

Everyone wants to find an easier way to AAR. But the simple fact is, there is no way to get better at it than to just practice, practice, practice. I was terrible at it until I finally got sick of sucking so bad. So I started getting up an hour early every day and spent that hour refueling in a refueling mission I created that started me in the air just a couple miles behind the tanker so I spent my time practicing, not taking off or chasing down the tanker. After 4 days I was beginning to stay hooked up for a few hundred pounds of fuel, and then a few thousand and finally that magic sound "refueling complete". Now I am actually very good at it and it is probably the single most rewarding element of the game. It feels so good to finally be good at something that kicked my butt such a short time ago. Put in the time and it will pay off. Also, you said you have big movements forward and backwards while refueling. Just go into level free flight and pick a speed, say 350 knots, and see what kind of throttle inputs it takes to stay at that speed. You may be surprised just how small the throttle movement is that you need to stay within 1 or 2 knots of your chosen speed. Then remember to use that same touch on the throttle while refueling. I bet you will smooth out your refueling movements which will make your refueling easier. But the main thing is to practice and keep practicing. There are no cheats that will take the place of that.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Sparky1b09

[speed-of-heat]

Everyone wants to find an easier way to AAR. But the simple fact is, there is no way to get better at it than to just practice, practice, practice. I was terrible at it until I finally got sick of sucking so bad. So I started getting up an hour early every day and spent that hour refueling in a refueling mission I created that started me in the air just a couple miles behind the tanker so I spent my time practicing, not taking off or chasing down the tanker. After 4 days I was beginning to stay hooked up for a few hundred pounds of fuel, and then a few thousand and finally that magic sound "refueling complete". Now I am actually very good at it and it is probably the single most rewarding element of the game. It feels so good to finally be good at something that kicked my butt such a short time ago. Put in the time and it will pay off. Also, you said you have big movements forward and backwards while refueling. Just go into level free flight and pick a speed, say 350 knots, and see what kind of throttle inputs it takes to stay at that speed. You may be surprised just how small the throttle movement is that you need to stay within 1 or 2 knots of your chosen speed. Then remember to use that same touch on the throttle while refueling. I bet you will smooth out your refueling movements which will make your refueling easier. But the main thing is to practice and keep practicing. There are no cheats that will take the place of that.

 

*this*

 

There is no magic throttle position.

 

1) as sparky says practice getting a constant speed and maintain it. (Vary the speed try 250 and 350 knots, and the pick a random number when you get good between 200 and 400)

 

2) practice formation flying constant speed and position

 

3) practice deliberately varying the position (as above)

 

4) practice the act of refueling

 

Oh and this skill like landing at the boat is pretty perishable, so you will need to do a maintenance cycle every week or so once you get good, I would think but I'm still learning

[DeltaMike]

Finally nailed it. What helps:

 

1. Breathing

 

What doesn't help:

 

1. "Now it places the lotion in the basket. It places the lotion in the basket! PUT THE X!*$%&$ LOTION IN THE BASKET!"

 

Wax on, wax off. Stick right, stick left. Throttle forward, throttle back. Breathe in, breathe out. Never one thing, always two.

[speed-of-heat]

This is one of the best tutorials I have used on this