Why only 3 Waypoints?

[TheSauvaaage]

Hi,

 

See title...

 

Why can we only have 3 WPs (+ IP, ST and HP) in the Cat? Is this a realistic representation of the Cat's navigational capacities?

 

I simply don't understand that... And even IF it is realisitc, Jester should be able to enter new waypoints while flying? Or not?

[QuiGon]

It is realistic. And how should Jester be able to create additional waypoints if the aircraft doesn't provide that??

[TheSauvaaage]

Really? So IRL all the F-14s only flew sorties with 3 WPs, no matter how far the distance would be? That seems like super primitive, even for the time...

 

Waypoints are nothing more than fixed points bound to coordinates, so as Jester can enter Surface target coordinates for us to follow, why not being able to enter them in the Mission Editor simply and have them available through Jester menu?

 

While typing, I think we could create several markers as waypoints, but that wouldn't work in mission creation/editing... hmmm.....

 

Anyway, I am still surprised about a Jet being limited to 3 programmed waypoints.

I simply have not enough creative power to imagine how that was enough in real situations.

[QuiGon]

Well, the Tomcat is an early 70s jets with 60s technology. And guess what, earlier jets didn't even have waypoints at all (e.g. the F-5)! :shocking:

 

But you aren't limited to 3 WPs though. As you said in your original post you also have some additional WPs (ST, HB, IP, FP). And the RIO can assign each WP new coordinates at any time. Believe it or not, but memory was pretty limited back in the days.

Edited March 21, 2019 by QuiGon

[danny875]

Don’t quote me on numbers but the Concorde could only have something like 6 ins waypoints so the crew would reuse the previous WPs after flying to them and I put new coordinates for them.

[Looney]

The RIO can insert new waypoints once these have been reached. So a route with 10 waypoints is entirely possible, the RIO has got some work to do.

 

Fly over waypoint 1, set DEST to waypoint 2, change waypoint 1 to waypoint 4, fly over waypoint 2, set DEST to waypoint 3, change waypoint 2 to waypoint 5.

 

All in all, a RIO with a small notebook can easily keep track of the route.

 

Keep in mind that an IP, Homebase, Surface target waypoint are also possible in the F14.

[viper2097]

What do you prefer more?

 

 

or

 

[Elor]

Well, the Tomcat is an early 70s jets with 60s technology. And guess what, earlier jets didn't even have waypoints at all (e.g. the F-5)! :shocking:

Well, the Viggen is just as old and can handle more waypoints....:music_whistling:

So it's not entirely unrealistic to expect a bit more of a state of the art carrier aircraft of the same time.

[TheSauvaaage]

The RIO can insert new waypoints once these have been reached. So a route with 10 waypoints is entirely possible, the RIO has got some work to do.

 

Fly over waypoint 1, set DEST to waypoint 2, change waypoint 1 to waypoint 4, fly over waypoint 2, set DEST to waypoint 3, change waypoint 2 to waypoint 5.

 

All in all, a RIO with a small notebook can easily keep track of the route.

 

Keep in mind that an IP, Homebase, Surface target waypoint are also possible in the F14.

 

Now we're talking!

But how do we get this into the Mission Editor and from there make Jester navigating us to WP4,5,... ?

 

As mentioned, I was sure that changing WPs coordinates to keep up a longer navigational sequence was common in the F-14 back in the day (obviously), still being surprise...

 

But as I will not fly a real F-14 in the future, I was just focusing on how we do that in DCS ;)

 

For example: The famous Red Flag mission has been given an F-14 option but all the twirks and irks with the 3 WP limitation makes it less fun... Though given jester should be able to change WPs coordinates, as mentioned above.

 

And pls keep in mind that many people are soloing the Cat. Having a human RIO available shouldn't be a requirement.

[RAF_JAGUAR]

Early Sepecat Jaguars had a whopping 16kb of Ram to drive the inertial navigation system which was considered to be state of the art back then. The HUD froze frequently if you cycled modes to quickly, and the moving (paper) map often did not move but it worked kind of. You could also recycle used waypoints, albeit via a clumsy and poorly positioned controller that to use meant you had to go heads in at low level and directly led to more than one accident before it was finally moved. Technology has indeed moved on.

[QuiGon]

Well, the Viggen is just as old and can handle more waypoints....:music_whistling:

So it's not entirely unrealistic to expect a bit more of a state of the art carrier aircraft of the same time.

The Viggen was way ahead of it's time in terms of digitalization! It didn't even used magnetic tapes like the Tomcat still did. And yet, it did also had a fixed set of just 11 WPs (B1-B9, LS, L) with a physical button for each of them (and some Bx-markpoints). Not a huge difference.

Edited March 21, 2019 by QuiGon

[QuiGon]

Now we're talking!

That's what I said before already:

And the RIO can assign each WP new coordinates at any time.

 

But how do we get this into the Mission Editor and from there make Jester navigating us to WP4,5,... ?

You tell him to enter new coordinates for WP1 or 2 or 3 or the special waypoints. You have two different options to tell him the coordinates. Either you tell him each single digit or you just tell him to use the coordinates from a position which you need to have marked on the F10 map.

[viper2097]

Seriosly, the Cat has 7 waypoints in total, for what do you need more?

Never had a situation where 7 were not enough...

[Mud]

Would be good for some to fly some WW2 birds so they go learn the basics of navigation.

[TheSauvaaage]

Either you tell him each single digit or you just tell him to use the coordinates from a position which you need to have marked on the F10 map.

 

I think the latter would be most practical.

[QuiGon]

I think the latter would be most practical.

Then feel free to do so:

1) Open the F10 map

2) Create a mark on the position where you want a waypoint

3) Assign a name to the mark

4) Tell Jester to enter new coordinates to a specific waypoint using the coordinates from the marked position

Edited March 21, 2019 by QuiGon

[Looney]

For me, the real fun is doing these missions in MP, with a human RIO and human Pilot, that's the most outstanding feature of the cat in my view. Jester is OK-ish, but no substitute.

[TheSauvaaage]

For me, the real fun is doing these missions in MP, with a human RIO and human Pilot, that's the most outstanding feature of the cat in my view. Jester is OK-ish, but no substitute.

 

I can imagine, but I am only soloing it.

Even if I had a friend or sqaudron flying with me, I can't commit to fixed schedules unfortunately. But I am sure it is awesome, thrilling and chilling at the same time to partner up for a 2-3 hour CAP or bombing run.

[viper2097]

Does anybody knows what AN means on the designation mode switch?

 

1 - Waypoint 1

2 - Waypoint 2

3 - Waypoint 3

FP - Fixpoint

IP - Initial Point

ST - Surface Target

HB - Homebase

AN - ?????

 

I did not find anything in the manual, however what about the other waypoints mentioned unter DCS specified mission editor options in the manual?

 

Defended Point (DP)

Hostile Area (HA)

Datalink Waypoint 1 Through 3 (DLWP1, DLWP2 and DLWP3)

Datalink Surface Target (DLST)

Datalink Fixed Point (DLFP)

[whiteladder]

Well, the Viggen is just as old and can handle more waypoints....:music_whistling:

So it's not entirely unrealistic to expect a bit more of a state of the art carrier aircraft of the same time.

 

 

 

Its worth remembering that the An/AYA-6 computer that handled Radar correlation, threat Id, prioritization, jammer steering, navigation and data display to the pilot an Rio had just 16K of Ram originally.

 

 

For comparison just the text in this thread comes to 14.3Kb

[TheSauvaaage]

For comparison just the text in this thread comes to 14.3Kb

 

Amazing, isn't it? My mobile phone has more computing power than the Apollo 11 on board cpu had.

 

Still, I didn't intend to suggest to implement anything unrealistic into the Cat module. I was just asking how to work around her limitations in regards to waypoints which could a) reseemble a realistic procedure and b) make this possible to pull of as a solo operator (at best without even touching the RIO seat)... and I think this has been answered sufficiently and I hope this gives some idead to mission creators who need more than the dafault number of waypoints

[Cytarabine]

Could you not comfortably set WP1 as you get to cruise post take off then WP2 perhaps at feet dry, WP IP pre strike, WP ground target at your target, fixed point for egress then WP3 on the way home until home plate for the carrier.

 

Not sure how it was really done, but 7 waypoints seems plenty :)

[TheSauvaaage]

To give an example, take a look at the First Singleplayer Mission (forgot the name) where you are supposed to fly a pretty long flight (I love that) and on WP3 you are supposed to fly West to bomb the target which is not bound to a specific Initial Point or Surface Target (although the Briefing tells you it is.... but I can't make it out in the Jester menues... or maybe I am stupid lol)

 

First of, in VR, spotting is a PITA, so I would like to create am additional steering point DIRECTLY on the target (which shouldn't be untrealistic as it is an immobile target, so fixed coordinates here). First problem is that you can't point out the target during the mission with F10 as enemies are invisible. So I would have to do that BEFORE the mission, right?

 

In general, independent of the plane, ground targets should ALWAYS be fixed to a steering point, as they are... well, fixed... unless it is a mobile target of course ;)

Edited March 21, 2019 by TheSauvaaage

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The F-14 wasn't designed for low level/deep strike missions that might benefit from being able to follow a detailed flight plan e.g. to avoid threats. I'd guess this is why it doesn't have the ability to hold that many waypoints.

[QuiGon]

Does anybody knows what AN means on the designation mode switch?

Great question!