Best practice for working around unfinished MP carrier ops?

[Bankler]

(This is not a bug report, but a request for solid workarounds for the obvious carrier bugs)

 

Since the launch of the Hornet, the MP functionality for spawning on the carrier is bugged. When spawning, aircraft hit each other, you get "flight delayed" messages even when there are just a few aircraft on deck. It's a complete mess.

 

In our group's case, we are typically 12-ish people that need to spawn in and launch. What usually happens is that after briefing is complete, and people start to spawn, we spend a good 30 minutes trying to get guys in (startup, INS alignment, get killed by someone spawning, repeat 3 times), before getting up in the air. Every time. It's very frustrating.

 

Granted DCS's current navy focus (Hornet etc), I can only assume making carriers work in MP is on ED's top-prio list?

 

Now with that out of the way, with the current bugged carrier, have you guys found any best practices on how to best work around the current issues?

 

Workarounds I thought of so far:

 

* Only spawning in 4-or-so guys at a time, launching them and having them orbit 10-20 minutes waiting for group 2 and 3 to spawn, startup, launch. (Downside, takes a lot of time and wastes fuel)

 

* Putting 3 carriers next to each other, so that each group launches from its own private carrier, then despawn the extra carriers after 15 minutes (so you come home to the same one). (Downside: Looks silly)

 

Any input on this is highly appreciated! If anyone has any good idea, or have found a pattern in what causes aircraft to smash into each other (and how it can be avoided) and so.

 

And ED, please try to solve these issues asap. The larger groups flying coop missions together are among your most dedicated and highly spending customers, so don't forget about them.

[Zyll]

+1000.

 

Our group has this exact problem every Sunday. So far we've resorted to multiple carriers, which is not ideal. More and more big fat Tomcats on the deck is just going to make the situation worse. I too would like to know if this is something on ED's radar to address.

[Woody01]

Our group doesn't actually have much trouble with that sort of thing anymore, not sure what we are doing different? Only thing I make sure of is that the mission is un paused before anyone spawns in, then it all seems to go ok, if anyone has spawned in before it is un paused they will explode for sure. We can get 12-16 aircraft per carrier in ramp start with 4 on runway start in the mission editor, we generally have 4-8 guys starting on the carrier at once.

[Bankler]

Our group doesn't actually have much trouble with that sort of thing anymore, not sure what we are doing different? Only thing I make sure of is that the mission is un paused before anyone spawns in, then it all seems to go ok, if anyone has spawned in before it is un paused they will explode for sure. We can get 12-16 aircraft per carrier in ramp start with 4 on runway start in the mission editor, we generally have 4-8 guys starting on the carrier at once.

 

Thanks! That’s very interesting. Would you be willing to share one of your recently made miz files, that you know works? We have never been close to spawning 12 aircraft on ramp start. Didn’t even know that there is 12 spawn points. It would be interesting to see your mission and see if we can isolate the differences. Things coming to mind is if you’re putting aircraft into 4-ship groups or single aircraft flights. I also noticed that there is some issue with missions made a few patches ago (need to put new flights in air, THEN change wp0 to ramp start, otherwise it says no parking slots in the ME), and this could possibly be related.

[Jar_VFA-113]

You can add unlimited aircraft to the Stennis if you assign them as take off from parking 1, then change them to parking 4 before you add the next aircraft.

 

We spawn in one at a time and taxi to to the landing area to stay clear of the elevators and catapults.

 

If you get a ‘flight delayed’ simply go to spectators then select your jet and hit fly again.

A Tomcat will crash on a flight delayed but it works fine for Hornet.

[Tomsk]

* Putting 3 carriers next to each other, so that each group launches from its own private carrier, then despawn the extra carriers after 15 minutes (so you come home to the same one). (Downside: Looks silly)

 

This is exactly what we do: it does look silly, and we wish we didn't have to, but it works reliably and can accomodate large packages well (which we often have).

 

We've tried all sorts. For example only having certain flights (max 8 planes) spawn on the carrier at once and the others have to wait to spawn in. However it's never worked well, especially since later joining aircraft keep spawning cold and dark on the catapults which then blocks the cats for the aircraft who are on the deck ready to take-off. To say nothing of a few team members who've once or twice started hooked up to the cat, forgot to remove the wheel chocks and so have shot off the cat straight into the water :) These issues have caused so many headaches, people exploding, cats being blocked and so on that in the end we just decided to run multiple carriers. Which has, to be fair, entirely fixed the problem.

 

We've also found if you run multiple carriers you have to despawn the other ones after everyone has taken off, or else the TACANs somehow "interfere" with each other. Even if you give each carrier different TACAN channels.

 

And ED, please try to solve these issues asap. The larger groups flying coop missions together are among your most dedicated and highly spending customers, so don't forget about them.

 

Yeah it is a bug ED could really do with getting round to fixing, it was present back in Flaming Cliffs with the Su-33 for example.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Tomsk

[Bankler]

We spawn in one at a time and taxi to to the landing area to stay clear of the elevators and catapults.

 

Do you cold start? If so, do you start with a few people, let them start up and taxi, and then a new group of people spawns? Or are you able to spawn all your guys so that everyone can startup together?

 

... These issues have caused so many headaches, people exploding, cats being blocked and so on that in the end we just decided to run multiple carriers. Which has, to be fair, entirely fixed the problem.

 

We've also found if you run multiple carriers you have to despawn the other ones after everyone has taken off, or else the TACANs somehow "interfere" with each other. Even if you give each carrier different TACAN channels.

 

Thanks a lot for the info! Now that you mention it, I remember we had a TCN problem the one time we used multiple carriers. Do you know if this bug happens even if the extra carriers have no TCN at all? Tried having them grouped/ungrouped with the main carrier? Same results?

 

When running your multi carrier setup, how many aircraft do you cold start on each carrier?

 

ED:

While not a proper solution to the problems, I think parts of the problem could be quick-fixed by disabling the aircraft-to-aircraft collision (or the damage model) the first 5 seconds after spawn. It seems like many times, the network hit of a spawning aircraft causes aircraft to warp around and each other.

[Ickx]

How do you get the planes to spawn on the elevator?

 

When I created a mission my planes spawn on the flight deck. Someone suggested that they will do that in SP but not in MP but when I loaded the mission in MP everything was the same as in SP.

[whaaw]

start the mission in the air on a tanker or something, and land on the carrier first with the group, give them some travel loadout so it makes sense to go rearm first.

[Silvern]

Thanks a lot for the info! Now that you mention it, I remember we had a TCN problem the one time we used multiple carriers. Do you know if this bug happens even if the extra carriers have no TCN at all? Tried having them grouped/ungrouped with the main carrier? Same results?

 

When running your multi carrier setup, how many aircraft do you cold start on each carrier?

 

It worked fine for us when we didn't have TCN on both ships. If a single carrier in a group has TCN, it works fine in our experience. Didnt try with separate groups so far.

 

With two carriers we've been able to spawn 14 Hornets max between them, with no issues.

What've also learned it helps if server is unpaused before clients start spawning in. Otherwise boom.

[captflyby]

Slot times for spawning

 

(This is not a bug report, but a request for solid workarounds for the obvious carrier bugs)

 

Since the launch of the Hornet, the MP functionality for spawning on the carrier is bugged. When spawning, aircraft hit each other, you get "flight delayed" messages even when there are just a few aircraft on deck. It's a complete mess.

 

In our group's case, we are typically 12-ish people that need to spawn in and launch. What usually happens is that after briefing is complete, and people start to spawn, we spend a good 30 minutes trying to get guys in (startup, INS alignment, get killed by someone spawning, repeat 3 times), before getting up in the air. Every time. It's very frustrating.

 

Granted DCS's current navy focus (Hornet etc), I can only assume making carriers work in MP is on ED's top-prio list?

 

Now with that out of the way, with the current bugged carrier, have you guys found any best practices on how to best work around the current issues?

 

Workarounds I thought of so far:

 

* Only spawning in 4-or-so guys at a time, launching them and having them orbit 10-20 minutes waiting for group 2 and 3 to spawn, startup, launch. (Downside, takes a lot of time and wastes fuel)

 

* Putting 3 carriers next to each other, so that each group launches from its own private carrier, then despawn the extra carriers after 15 minutes (so you come home to the same one). (Downside: Looks silly)

 

Any input on this is highly appreciated! If anyone has any good idea, or have found a pattern in what causes aircraft to smash into each other (and how it can be avoided) and so.

 

And ED, please try to solve these issues asap. The larger groups flying coop missions together are among your most dedicated and highly spending customers, so don't forget about them.

 

 

 

 

Our squadron recently began deployment exercises with about 40 aircraft of various types & configurations. Most were tomcats and hornets.

 

 

We have a "spawning officer" for lack of a better term - although we don't call him that, its his responsibility to coordinate the flight groups, SEAD, CAP, etc.

 

 

 

The SO spawns in aircraft and then immediately moves them to another section of the carrier where spawning is not known to occur.

 

 

Planes move in an orderly manner to start, arm, comm and get assigned to a catapult.

 

 

The SO allows only those to spawn that can reasonably do so without blowing themselves up and someone else along with them.

 

 

So far, this is the fastest, and most efficient method that I have seen us use, and the exploding has stopped.

 

 

Type of mission is irrelivant to the spawning process, unless of course, we have land base departures, which we do from time to time.

 

 

Hope this helps.

[Woody01]

Thanks! That’s very interesting. Would you be willing to share one of your recently made miz files, that you know works? We have never been close to spawning 12 aircraft on ramp start. Didn’t even know that there is 12 spawn points. It would be interesting to see your mission and see if we can isolate the differences. Things coming to mind is if you’re putting aircraft into 4-ship groups or single aircraft flights. I also noticed that there is some issue with missions made a few patches ago (need to put new flights in air, THEN change wp0 to ramp start, otherwise it says no parking slots in the ME), and this could possibly be related.

 

Sure thing Bankler, though I am not sure you will see anything and I'm not sure how it would work spawning 12 people in at once! But let us know how it goes, the most we have is 6-8 spawning at one time for the most part. Most important thing is that no one spawns in before the mission is un paused and as Jay said get those who have spawned in to park in the landing area once started up. But this mission has I think 12 Hornets at Ramp start and 2 Tomcats on Cat's 3 & 4. It might just take a bit of communication and coordination to get everyone in safely. Good luck, hope it helps :)

Bandar_Abbas_Airfield_Denial_1_3.miz

[Bankler]

captflyby>> Thanks a lot! Some pretty good advice there!

Woody01>> Thanks! I'll definitely take a look!

 

Much appreciated!

 

When stress testing this stuff, is the only way getting lots of actual people in (one aircraft per physical computer), or can I run multiple DCS instances and spawn several client aircraft from the same computer?

Edited April 2, 2019 by Bankler

[Woody01]

That's above my pay grade dude! :D But I will be interested in your results.

We had a good session tonight and aircraft were spawning in in all sorts of spots on the deck, it was quite busy but only one incident to report, Hornets and Tomcats all mixed together, the only incident was where a Tomcat spawned in next to a Hornet next to the tower (forward of) and the wing overlap on the Tomcat was hitting the Hornet resulting in the Tomcat loosing a wing (the Hornets wings were folded up). Apart from that we were spawning in all over the shop and it all went great. One issue I personally had was my particular aircraft if it spawned in on the Port side it would not launch me off a Cat, any Cat, on the Starboard side it worked fine? Weird.

[Bankler]

One issue I personally had was my particular aircraft if it spawned in on the Port side it would not launch me off a Cat, any Cat, on the Starboard side it worked fine? Weird.

 

Did the carrier move straight north?

[104th_Maverick]

We spawn everyone on the CATs and then decouple from the shuttle and taxi to the rear of the ship to allow others to enter on the CATs behind us.

[Woody01]

Did the carrier move straight north?

 

No it was heading 293deg, I have had this on another mission as well, both times it was in a bad thunderstorm.

[Bankler]

;3868455']We spawn everyone on the CATs and then decouple from the shuttle and taxi to the rear of the ship to allow others to enter on the CATs behind us.

 

Does that mean you spawn with engines on on the cats?

 

Can you decouple Hornets from the shuttle as well, or does that only work for Tomcats?

[boscoh]

If cold start is what you guys want, just use JARs method as described (hot start from parking), and shutdown in the landing area using Win+End (auto shutdown), then have everyone start up together.

 

We very rarely have mishaps doing this, and the mishaps are usually from guys parking too close and getting a lag warp into someone else's aircraft.

 

With 12 aircraft you may need to send some folks to the bow. If you get too close to a cat you risk being spawned upon or delaying spawns.

 

Hopefully will be better in the new carrier coming soon.

 

You can add unlimited aircraft to the Stennis if you assign them as take off from parking 1, then change them to parking 4 before you add the next aircraft.

 

We spawn in one at a time and taxi to to the landing area to stay clear of the elevators and catapults.

 

If you get a ‘flight delayed’ simply go to spectators then select your jet and hit fly again.

A Tomcat will crash on a flight delayed but it works fine for Hornet.

[104th_Maverick]

Does that mean you spawn with engines on on the cats?

 

Can you decouple Hornets from the shuttle as well, or does that only work for Tomcats?

 

Yes and yes.

 

Simply press U and raise your launch bar and taxi away.

[Bankler]

Related, if you’re using a mix of Hornets and Tomcats. For Hornets it worked great to start an engine from cold, then taxi to clear the spawn points, engage the parking brake and start the INS align from your new spot.

Doing this with the Tomcats caused all their waypoints to be in the wrong places. This is due to the stored heading assuming the aircraft to not turn before starting the alignment process. You may taxi, but not turn your nose in a new direction. Or you can of course do a full 9 minute align (not using stored heading).

 

Details here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3873081#post3873081