Defence against PR missiles

[Yellonet]

Will a PR missile still go to the last known target point if the radar is switched off?

 

Could you fool a PR missile that the radar is moving by having multiple radars that are each in use for only a few seconds, would it interpret that as movement or as a new target, home in on that or stay on the first target's last known coordinates?

 

For instance you could have two identical radars placed, say 500 meters apart, each radar taking turns in emitting energy would an incoming PR missile try to change course to the new location, back again and so on, or would it just go for the first target it picked up?

 

What are the defences against PR missiles?

[Laud]

PR? Do you mean ARM? I think you can defend yourself by shoot them down or run away. If your radar is mounted on a mobile plattform, turn it off and give everything your vehicle can! ;) But most important is: You'll have to notice that you're under fire!

[Pilotasso]

AMRAAM's and R-77's can be cued into their targets only half way. Their search pattern in LOMAC is so effective this works. But you can defend yourself against this by observing behaviour patterns. IF your enegaged with an f-15 or a Mig-29, and if you know that his also aware and engaged on you, and suddenly he breaks off and retreats you can bet you hes got one ARH homing missile heading in your direction wich will find you if you follow him. Resist the temptation to chase him off in straight line. Turn to one side and be prepared to beam the missile if it finds you. This also alows you to re-engage him faster if he decides to come back as well. Its also possible that you will have him on radar first, if he takes too much time to do the same (try changing altitude) youll have the upper hand only this time youll probably be much closer.

[golfsierra2]

For instance you could have two identical radars placed, say 500 meters apart, each radar taking turns in emitting energy would an incoming PR missile try to change course to the new location, back again and so on, or would it just go for the first target it picked up?

 

 

There is no such thing like "two identical radars". IRL every radar has its own unique finger print, which an ARM will recognize. IRL it won't work to switch between two or more radars of the same type.

 

It might work in Lock-On, but I can't see how to have them stop radiating. Once a radar is put on the map (or a radar equipped aircraft appears), this radar will be active all day long.

[192nd_Erdem]

PR? Do you mean ARM? I think you can defend yourself by shoot them down or run away. If your radar is mounted on a mobile plattform, turn it off and give everything your vehicle can! ;) But most important is: You'll have to notice that you're under fire!

 

I think he means those "Passive Radar" missiles, aka missiles homing onto radar stations(HARM, KH-58). Not ARM.

[zaelu]

Just a stupid question... are those missiles able to lock on to a F-15 with his radar forgotten on? :D

[Laud]

I think he means those "Passive Radar" missiles, aka missiles homing onto radar stations(HARM, KH-58). Not ARM.

 

 

Then I'm a bit confused by the discussion about 77s and 120s as they have nothing to do with their targets radar. :huh:

[Laud]

Just a stupid question... are those missiles able to lock on to a F-15 with his radar forgotten on? :D

 

Flying a SEAD-mission I've never been able to fire anti-radiation-missiles against airborne radar-emitting-sources.

[Yellonet]

There is no such thing like "two identical radars". IRL every radar has its own unique finger print, which an ARM will recognize. IRL it won't work to switch between two or more radars of the same type.

Ok, so a ARM won't be fooled by switching the radar off and turning on a similar one. And I assume that it will fly to the last point where the radar was known to be if the radar is turned off. I guess they'll just have to manufacture some cheap radar dish and have a whole stash of spares with them in the field, and once the first is taken out they just start the next one :D

[golfsierra2]

Ok, so a ARM won't be fooled by switching the radar off and turning on a similar one. And I assume that it will fly to the last point where the radar was known to be if the radar is turned off. I guess they'll just have to manufacture some cheap radar dish and have a whole stash of spares with them in the field, and once the first is taken out they just start the next one :D

 

IRL yes, but again it can not be done in LO/FC, because AFAIK there is no way of ordering a radar station to turn off and on the radar transmitter. Once it's on, it's on.

[Force_Feedback]

Best countermeasure: turn off the emitter and relocate ASAP. Passive air to air missiles (R-27EP) are said to have a vector logic, but, if you don't fly in a straight line after turning off the radar you'll be fine. Now, the big challange here it to spot the missile launched at you, as it's a passive one, no noise on your RWR.

I guess the only real CM are missile launch detectors ala Mig-35, otherwise it will be *boom* and a 'wtf happened' from the pilot if he's still alive.

The KS-172 probably has that in mind, as it has an active seeker for the final guidance, and since no missile will cover 300km in tens of seconds, it needs the radar seeker as the AWACS would spot such missile approaching and turn off the emitters and start doing evasive maneuvers.

PR guided AA missiles have limited use against fighters because of their radar beam (always from the front, so in the visual line of the enemy), ofcourse no pilot in the world could see that it's a passive missile, but making a turn would make the R-27EP go flying towards the projected intercept point, which is not where the enemy plane is.

[Avimimus]

It is said that there has been a lot of work into a dedicated passive radar missile for hunting fighters in the former CIS...crazy stuff...

[Yellonet]

I was first and foremost thinking of ground based radars and how they would avoid getting blasted without ever knowing about the incoming missile.

The problem is that you won't know it's coming, therefore an active on all the time defence is needed, there must be some way to fool a missile that the radar is moving... but how?

[GGTharos]

What do you mean you don't know its coming? Patriots, for one, can detect and shoot down ARMs. Smaller, olders SAMs might not be able, but that's why you assume there's wild-weasels around and do your sidelobe modification and other work to throw the missiles off.

 

The other thing you can do is turn the radar off, and missile has nothing to go on - if you do it early enough, accuracy isn't quite so great, at least with a bunch of weapons ... for this reason the HARM for example is supposed to be fitted with an active seeker so it can see and attack the target even when the radar's off, but I wonder just how viable this really is.

[centermass]

The HARM "remembers" where the spike was after it has turned off.

 

Also the pilot can ground designate the target with out ever getting a paint. So if there is intel on a SAM location it can be destroyed without ever lighting up.

[GGTharos]

With the new GPS enhancement, yes. On the other hand, the previous HARM versions proved themselves to be pretty ineffective over Serbia/Bosnia

[Highwayman-Ed]

It also depends on the type of ARM missile employed. Some are pretty sneaky :thumbup:

 

Tornado's can employ the ALARM missile very effectively.

 

The missile can be launched in a passive launch mode, or if the seeker radar is switched off whilst the missile is en-route to target, the ALARM climbs to a high altitude and deploys a parachute, decending to the ground slowly. If the radar switches on, the chute is cut, and the missile guides to the co-ordinates of the transmitter.

 

It's still a sitting duck for advanced SAM systems like the SA-15 though, but most radars wont be lookin directly up :music_whistling: