Curves & Axis Tuning Thread - Share your Curves (work safe ones only plz)!

[Schwarzfeld]

Control Curves: I've been having a helluva time tuning my pitch/roll curves for a standard stick (non-floor stick), X-56 in my case, haven't really found a setup I'm happy with as I'm still "chasing the rabbit" on pitch oscillations getting in fine in formation as well as AAR - figured I'd throw this up and see if folks would be willing to discuss control curves amongst ourselves by stick type, here are mine, would greatly appreciate any suggestions from anyone else, lets see those curves:

 

 

 

[Donut]

I share your frustration. I have not been able to find curve settings that work for me either. I have tried positive curves, negative curves, and zero curves. I have an X-55 on my desk, no extension.

 

Positive curves dampen/decrease sensitivity of inputs around center which helps when more precise control is needed such as with AAR, formation flying and landing. However, the drawback is that it increases sensitivity and amplifies control movement the further you deflect the stick from center. This makes it very difficult to not over control the aircraft when performing aggressive maneuvers and often leads to over stressing the aircraft and snapping wings.

 

Negative curves have the opposite results with increased sensitivity around center, making it difficult to perform precise inputs, however; you gain much better control with larger stick deflections making it much easier to aggressively maneuver the aircraft.

 

I have never over stressed or snapped a wing with negative curves but do it every time with zero and positive curves.

 

With this being a desktop simulator, an aircraft such as the Tomcat which relies heavily on being able to feel the aircraft and the pressure on the stick, will be difficult to control because we lack those sensations. Heatblur has tried to compensate for this lack of feel with shaking and sounds but the lack of force/pressure on the stick is what really makes the aircraft difficult to control effectively and realistically.

 

There have been several post on the forums about curves and the responses vary greatly between positive, negative, and zero curves. What work for one person and their stick setup may not work for another.

 

I have yet to see Heatblur respond to any of these threads and I really wish they would. What curves are they and their SME's using? Was the Tomcat designed to be used with certain curves?

 

I have spent way too much time trying to find the right curves and I still can't find something that works. I don't need stick curves in any other DCS aircraft (F/A-18, A-10, F-5, F-86, P-51). I don't know what makes the Tomcat different.

 

Finding the right control settings is critical to being able to fly and ultimately enjoy the aircraft. It shouldn't be this difficult and frustrating.

 

It would be great if Heatblur could in some way simulate the force/pressure on the stick needed at high G loads.

Edited April 17, 2019 by =BJM=

[VZ_342]

I’ve tried higher curve settings (25+) but really don’t like them. It feels like nothing is happening...nothing...nothi—WOAAH TOO MUCH!

 

Smooth and steady, predictable. But “0” is way too sensitive. 15-20 is my usual curve numbers.

 

Disclaimer: I’m still learning Formation 101.

[Victory205]

No curves whatsoever, 2-3 DZ on all axis.

 

Best approach is to focus on your own skills and stop looking for magical solutions. Use your time to practice basic instrument flying using the VDI.

[Donut]

No curves whatsoever, 2-3 DZ on all axis.

 

Best approach is to focus on your own skills and stop looking for magical solutions. Use your time to practice basic instrument flying using the VDI.

 

Thanks Victory205...means a lot hearing from you on this.

 

Personally, I am not looking for a magical solution. I am just trying to simulate the most realistic feel possible.

 

You flew the Tomcat in real life...did you ever have to think about how much you are pulling on the stick? Was it easy to over pull, snap a wing off, overstress the aircraft?

 

I find that I have to always be conciously aware of my stick position and how much I am pulling due to the lack of feel you would get in a real aircraft. That is the issue for me.

Edited April 17, 2019 by =BJM=

[Hunter Joker]

I share your frustration. I have not been able to find curve settings that work for me either. I have tried positive curves, negative curves, and zero curves. I have an X-55 on my desk, no extension.

 

Positive curves dampen/decrease sensitivity of inputs around center which helps when more precise control is needed such as with AAR, formation flying and landing. However, the drawback is that it increases sensitivity and amplifies control movement the further you deflect the stick from center. This makes it very difficult to not over control the aircraft when performing aggressive maneuvers and often leads to over stressing the aircraft and snapping wings.

 

Negative curves have the opposite results with increased sensitivity around center, making it difficult to perform precise inputs, however; you gain much better control with larger stick deflections making it much easier to aggressively maneuver the aircraft.

 

I have never over stressed or snapped a wing with negative curves but do it every time with zero and positive curves.

 

With this being a desktop simulator, an aircraft such as the Tomcat which relies heavily on being able to feel the aircraft and the pressure on the stick, will be difficult to control because we lack those sensations. Heatblur has tried to compensate for this lack of feel with shaking and sounds but the lack of force/pressure on the stick is what really makes the aircraft difficult to control effectively and realistically.

 

There have been several post on the forums about curves and the responses vary greatly between positive, negative, and zero curves. What work for one person and their stick setup may not work for another.

 

I have yet to see Heatblur respond to any of these threads and I really wish they would. What curves are they and their SME's using? Was the Tomcat designed to be used with certain curves?

 

I have spent way too much time trying to find the right curves and I still can't find something that works. I don't need stick curves in any other DCS aircraft (F/A-18, A-10, F-5, F-86, P-51). I don't know what makes the Tomcat different.

 

Finding the right control settings is critical to being able to fly and ultimately enjoy the aircraft. It shouldn't be this difficult and frustrating.

 

It would be great if Heatblur could in some way simulate the force/pressure on the stick needed at high G loads.

Snapping the wing is not a curve problem, is a combining input problem. I manage to pull 13.5/14 positive G without snapping and sometimes at 5 the wing broke... Then I noticed that if I apply stick pressure TOGHETER stick roll the wings goes easy... If I roll, release and then pull the stick, I can go very hard...I make some test and it happen every time. Then I search the forum and I found others (really) expert that stated that the Tomcat at high speed don't like stick & roll at the same time. I hope it help. Bye.

 

Inviato dal mio BLA-L09 utilizzando Tapatalk

[birdstrike]

in my experience, using input curves in dcs is problematic.

 

it seems to cause small but perceptible input delays, and setting a curve on 1axis, does for some reason influence other axis. i.e. setting a positive curve on the rudder axis seems to affect the elevator axis as well. its not like the same axis is applied to the elevator then, but somehow feels like you have to put in more stick movement to get the same results like when you have no curves applied at all.(pretty obvious on some modules like the 109).

 

 

i know that sounds strange, and i guess many will tell me that i am wrong on this, but throughout the years i get the same outcome with all the dcs modules i own, so i avoid using curves and rather try to get used to the behaviour of each aircraft with 0/0/0 settings.

thats not an F-14 problem though(i think the F-14 flies pretty pleasent without any curves), but a dcs core problem.

Edited April 18, 2019 by birdstrike

[Larkis]

I only got one AAR until today so maybe there are a lot improvements to my stick but that are my curves:

 

Pitch: No Changes. I tried a few setups but it allways messed up on some points in Dogfights when you need to fly close to the max (when everything is shaken). So i no curves for me here. But when i reduce the vertical saturation to 75 it comes to the point where everything shakens but nothing more. I tried with this saturation but go back to 100%.

 

Roll: Here a have a curve of 16. Same i use in the hornet. Works ok for me. No other changes.

 

Rudder: I have a Deadzone von 10, cause from my Thrustmaster Rudder its hard to tell where the middleposition is and even a little rudder input makes a huge difference in the F14 to me.

 

Throttle: I use a curve of 19 and i dont use the throttle-button, so the curve act like a normal axis and is in the middle. The reason for that is, that in my opinion, the most accurate area for the throttle is in the middle witgh speed 250-350kn for formation flying or tanker. Above and Below that i mostly go max throttle or to idle. So that works gread for me to hold speed with the tanker. For Carrier-Landing i use Autothrottle.

 

 

And additional thought for AAR. Currently i work a lot with autopilot and hold altitute when i drop Bombs CCRP with my RIO and Lantirn. It helps a lot to hodl altitute on the bomb run. I activate Autopilot, select altitute up and then press the NWS-Button, position the plane and release the button. Its a lot easier to hold now in relation to trimm only. Maybe that helps with AAR? Going in Position behind the tanker, use Autopilot for altitute and conentrate more on the roll and speed to plug in.

 

Thats my thoughts. Remember, im not a pro, i just try to find my way as everyone else.

[Schwarzfeld]

With respect to the pros who really flew the plane - unless our sim rig includes a floor mounted stick with extension (mine does not) - flying on a completely linear axis tune is just not realistic or practical for almost any DCS module, some are worse than others - the Hornet requires very little curve for standard sticks, but while I only have flight time racked up in GA little birds and obviously am no authority on a mil jet, when I make fine adjustments on a Piper Cub's stick, it's... on the floor. My X56 or even an TM Hog on a standard stick base, totally different ballgame.

 

I messed with a user-curve last night an Embraer left seater helped me out with that he uses, its alot less radical than the one I started with, but it seems to be making much more sense.

 

I'd love to do a floor stick for a totally linear axial tune but thats just not realistic with my Obutto cockpit especially considering I work my day job Mon-Fri 9-5 in this rig so ergonomics are important.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Schwarzfeld

[Victory205]

I don't have a floor stick. Rest your arm on an arm rest or your thigh/kneeboard.

[Schwarzfeld]

I'm resting it on my thigh, center stick mount with the X56... I know its not the top notch stick but its not garbage either, with a reasonable dead zone and zero curve, there's simply no way I can even do so much as hold a set airspeed and maintain level flight by hand in the Tomcat. Just tapping it aft sends the VVI climbing, so... gotta have some kinda curve... I know I'm a twitchy dude and CFIs bitched about my inability to relax and all but damn

[funkyfranky]

I always use a stepwise linear curves.

Non-linear curves are difficult because of the derivative constantly changing. But having two linear parts helps to compensate for my shorter desktop stick/lever in the critical area of small deflections (assuming the aircraft response in DCS to be modeled correctly for a linear behaviour with a stick length corresponding to the RL one). In principle one could even derive the proper slope around the origin of the curve by the fraction of the RL aircraft and the available physical stick. That should give the best agreement for small elongations.

[Donut]

So for those who use curves to decrease the sensitivity around center, how do you handle the increased sensitivity further away from center? What I experience is that when I am pulling hard, AoA at 15, just the slightest increase in aft stick pressure will max out the AoA and g load and I lose control.

 

In a real Tomcat, I would think in the scenario above, you would feel increased stick pressure, making it very difficult to rapidly add stick input and over-pull. I wish this could be simulated somehow. When I am pulling hard, I am paying more attention to my stick input and AoA then on anything outside of the aircraft. The amplified audio and visuals cues help, but nothing will prevent undesirable stick inputs other than extreme finesse and focus...which for me, has been a challenge.

[uri_ba]

M2k needs no curves at all. It has FBW curves baked it. I assume that hornet has the same.

 

Personally I had to tune 10-15 curve for the Cat, to stop it being too tweachy in AAR or approach. But then again, my stick doesn't move anyways...

[Larkis]

So for those who use curves to decrease the sensitivity around center, how do you handle the increased sensitivity further away from center? What I experience is that when I am pulling hard, AoA at 15, just the slightest increase in aft stick pressure will max out the AoA and g load and I lose control.

 

In a real Tomcat, I would think in the scenario above, you would feel increased stick pressure, making it very difficult to rapidly add stick input and over-pull. I wish this could be simulated somehow. When I am pulling hard, I am paying more attention to my stick input and AoA then on anything outside of the aircraft. The amplified audio and visuals cues help, but nothing will prevent undesirable stick inputs other than extreme finesse and focus...which for me, has been a challenge.

 

That is why j font use an axis on pitch. Its realy hard for me to fly with an controled high AoA with curved axis.

[Saber104]

No curves whatsoever, 2-3 DZ on all axis.

 

Victory ... I assume you mean no curves on throttle axis as well--correct? BTW, Your "F14 Carrier Landing Tips" is an excellent read!

[nicka117]

So for those who use curves to decrease the sensitivity around center, how do you handle the increased sensitivity further away from center? What I experience is that when I am pulling hard, AoA at 15, just the slightest increase in aft stick pressure will max out the AoA and g load and I lose control.

 

In a real Tomcat, I would think in the scenario above, you would feel increased stick pressure, making it very difficult to rapidly add stick input and over-pull. I wish this could be simulated somehow. When I am pulling hard, I am paying more attention to my stick input and AoA then on anything outside of the aircraft. The amplified audio and visuals cues help, but nothing will prevent undesirable stick inputs other than extreme finesse and focus...which for me, has been a challenge.

 

Just use a custom user defined curve. You should be able to play with the individual amounts at each side of the range and put it exactly where you want. You dont have to use the whole range. All the joysticks are toys so the relative stick movements are arbitrary. Set up the toy so you can fly the sim effectively.

[Vertigo72]

Im a DCS newbie that has a 50% chance of surviving a carrier landing and has yet to manage aerial refueling, so who am I to speak, but Ive seen the topic of curves discussed to death in the RC world (as in radio controlled planes) and my conclusion is that curves are almost always poor attempts that try to solve one of two problems:

- a bad stick (/radio)

- a bad pilot

 

However, in the RC world we do have something that I have not seen in PC sims and that could make sense: rate control. On just about any RC radio you can toggle a switch to change between high or low rates, ie, responsiveness of the stick, so you can have full deflection in one setting, and reduced range of movement in another. You would typically use high rates when flying aerobatics and low rates when trying to fly "scale" (make the flying look realistic to its scale) or when flying formation or possibly even landing in extremely maneuverable planes.

 

Keep in mind, RC planes can easily have >10x the roll rate of any real or simulated fighter plane and some will exceed the measurement limits of G force sensor that go to 38G. If you think the tomcat is twitchy, this is another level. But I do think a a similar toggle could be helpful to make refueling easier. Although its obvious at least my biggest problem is piloting skills and not curves (or rates) :).

Edited April 21, 2019 by Vertigo72

[Vertigo72]

In a real Tomcat, I would think in the scenario above, you would feel increased stick pressure, making it very difficult to rapidly add stick input and over-pull. I wish this could be simulated somehow.

 

It obviously can, and even is when using a force feedback stick.

Unfortunately, due to patenting issues, the only realistic option for a force feedback stick right now is buying a 15 year old used MS sidewinder FFB2 (which is a good stick, I hoard them, but they are far from ideal as a hotas given its very limited number of switches and POVs)

 

The good news is that most force feedback patents will begin to expire this year. So Im hopeful we will soon see a new wave of force feedback enabled hotas sticks. This is one reason Im holding off buying a highend hotas setup; I simply dont want to give up FFB, and Im optimistic soon I wont have to.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Vertigo72