Carrier comms - Mini Updates

[Tippis]

By being patient. Again we (including you) don't know how things ultimately will be implemented by ED.

Ehrm… well, then no. If we just sit around being patient, it will not “solve itself” because then we already know how it will be implemented by ED. They told us.

 

Complaining is how we create that solution, because it will not happen by itself.

[bell_rj]

There's an interesting suggestion in a place that I won't mention because I can't remember if it's against the rules or not. Anyway, someone suggested making the carrier visible to all but non-collidable to those who haven't paid for the module. So essentially the carrier would be a great looking advert in the game, and would encourage people to buy the module so they could land on it.

 

I still think carrier ATC should be free to all, but at least if ED don't stop people without the carrier module from joining servers where the paid carrier is in use then it prevents further community fragmentation. I'd rather that and pony up some cash for the improved carrier to get the ATC if that was the choice.

[NineLine]

Ok, guys let me try and give you some scenarios.

 

1) ED gives away the carrier model as the core, or a lo-res representation. Now you have non-owners landing willy nilly on the carrier, messing up owners carrier landings, running over their crew, and general immersion breaking.

 

2) ED makes the module "invisible" to non-purchasers, but they can still join the server. Then these people see a ghost ship floating around, invisible with hornets floating in mid-air, or enemy aircraft are unable to engage the carrier.

 

3) Model no collision or ability to land. Again, immersion breaking, people that don't own it flying through the carrier, again enemy aircraft cant interact, etc.

 

4) ED just gives away the module free as a core update. ED is still a business, and we maintain a lot of free content with the core game already. At some point, there needs to be a return on investment. The time and effort that has gone into this so far are immense. It will pave the way for many core game improvements, both with tech improvements and simply keeping the lights on.

 

We will do the very best, to make this accessible as we can, but it has to work for both sides. I would hope most of you want us to be around for a while. We want to make sure we are to continue bringing you these best content out there. And just know, anyone that wants a great carrier experience will want this module.

[Tippis]

Ok, guys let me try and give you some scenarios.

 

1) ED gives away the carrier model as the core, or a lo-res representation. Now you have non-owners landing willy nilly on the carrier, messing up owners carrier landings, running over their crew, and general immersion breaking.

 

2) ED makes the module "invisible" to non-purchasers, but they can still join the server. Then these people see a ghost ship floating around, invisible with hornets floating in mid-air, or enemy aircraft are unable to engage the carrier.

 

3) Model no collision or ability to land. Again, immersion breaking, people that don't own it flying through the carrier, again enemy aircraft cant interact, etc.

 

4) ED just gives away the module free as a core update. ED is still a business, and we maintain a lot of free content with the core game already. At some point, there needs to be a return on investment. The time and effort that has gone into this so far are immense. It will pave the way for many core game improvements, both with tech improvements and simply keeping the lights on.

5) Model with collision and ability to land, but without interactivity (so good luck on that landing bit which would be pointless anyway since you can't actually get anything out of it), and since the server is doing all the AI calculations anyway and have to own the module (in some form or another) to run it, the enemy aircraft it controls can interact just fine…

 

e: Oh and one more thing:

And just know, anyone that wants a great carrier experience will want this module.

That was never the issue. It's the people who don't want (or more accurately care about) that experience that you're turning into a problem.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Tippis
one more thing…

[dawgie79]

Ehrm… well, then no. If we just sit around being patient, it will not “solve itself” because then we already know how it will be implemented by ED. They told us.

 

Complaining is how we create that solution, because it will not happen by itself.

Until implemented you don't. No matter what you say.

[ebabil]

You don't need to explain carrier thing. It is a businness and you do what you gotta do.

Just please don't sell land airports atc or something like that. these things are core of a flight sim

[Tippis]

Until implemented you don't. No matter what you say.

Not what I say — what ED say. And I do know what they say.

 

That will not magically change unless we give them reason to. It will not “solve itself” because without our input, there will be no perceived problem to solve. “Being patient” will not achieve that because again, that's just a euphemism for not providing the required input to highlight that something needs to be solved.

[rjetster1]

This is ridiculous! If you can’t change it, which ED has clearly stated their release intentions, then complaining does not work as a strategy here… it certainly doesn’t help or hurt the progress… quit playing victim!

[Jester2138]

I would hope most of you want us to be around for a while. . . And just know, anyone that wants a great carrier experience will want this module.

 

 

I want you to be around for a while, too. Which is why I'm so mystified by your decision on the Carrier DLC. You are losing long-term sales, not gaining them, by designing it this way. If you want more money (who doesn't?) then you as a company should listen to the critics here more understandingly. There are tons of people who wanted to buy it who now won't, myself included. And since I run the missions and server for my group of 10-20 DCS players, that means none of them will be either. What would be the point? We wouldn't be able to use it on our missions, because even one person not having it would mean none of us can use it.

 

You've received multiple, highly-doable suggestions to make the carrier data available to everyone, but lock out any interactivity (including cats and traps) to those who didn't buy the module. I fail to see how that won't generate more sales in the long term.

 

The condescending responses by you and others here are not exactly building goodwill with those who do the majority of your marketing for you (the high-profile MP community).

Edited May 19, 2019 by Jester2138

[Proof]

[...]

 

What about potentially keeping the collision model, except the wires so you cannot land.

 

If you do land anyway, cool I guess? You can't interact with the carrier, you can't contact the carrier, you can't use the catapults, or anything like that.

 

You can't spawn on the carrier, and you are not considered "landed" even if you do manage to touch down on the carrier. (meaning life loss on servers which implement limited lives, no rearming, no refuelling etc)

 

The odd part I guess would be the deck crew, this would be reaching, but it would be cool if the carrier crew was visible, but I would fully expect it not to be.

[NineLine]

What about potentially keeping the collision model, except the wires so you cannot land.

 

If you do land anyway, cool I guess? You can't interact with the carrier, you can't contact the carrier, you can't use the catapults, or anything like that.

 

You can't spawn on the carrier, and you are not considered "landed" even if you do manage to touch down on the carrier. (meaning life loss on servers which implement limited lives, no rearming, no refuelling etc)

 

The odd part I guess would be the deck crew, this would be reaching, but it would be cool if the carrier crew was visible, but I would fully expect it not to be.

 

It has to be fair to those that purchase it too, if we do this, then think of the havoc that could be caused, you and your buds running the perfect 4 flight carrier landings, only to be interrupted by joe blow blasting through your formation and crashing into the deck.

[ebabil]

It has to be fair to those that purchase it too, if we do this, then think of the havoc that could be caused, you and your buds running the perfect 4 flight carrier landings, only to be interrupted by joe blow blasting through your formation and crashing into the deck.

 

this is not special for a carrier module, trolls are trolls and they can ruin their party by crashing into them just before the landing. i think you need to levae this to mods of the servers. they just ban them

[NineLine]

5) Model with collision and ability to land, but without interactivity (so good luck on that landing bit which would be pointless anyway since you can't actually get anything out of it), and since the server is doing all the AI calculations anyway and have to own the module (in some form or another) to run it, the enemy aircraft it controls can interact just fine…

 

e: Oh and one more thing:

 

That was never the issue. It's the people who don't want (or more accurately care about) that experience that you're turning into a problem.

 

But you pay for it, your buds are flying an awesome pattern, all set up, gonna be a great stream today, and someone comes in on fire and crashes the deck, now you paid for that experience, and it's ruined by someone that just doesn't care about your experience.

 

It has to be a balance, and I feel like an advocate for you guys in a way, and I really ran over every scenario I could think of last night, and the MP just breaks in so many ways.

[Proof]

It has to be fair to those that purchase it too, if we do this, then think of the havoc that could be caused, you and your buds running the perfect 4 flight carrier landings, only to be interrupted by joe blow blasting through your formation and crashing into the deck.

 

What's preventing that from happening when joe blow owns the carrier module? That's a problem with the individual, and they would probably be removed from the server for doing so.

[Tippis]

It has to be fair to those that purchase it too, if we do this, then think of the havoc that could be caused, you and your buds running the perfect 4 flight carrier landings, only to be interrupted by joe blow blasting through your formation and crashing into the deck.

…and how is that any different than the “havoc” the same Joe Blow causes on any other airport at the moment? Why is a hard solution required to keep out the Joe SeaBlows (assuming they don't pay for the privilege of disrupting the gathering anyway), rather than let the servers handle them the same way the handle the Joe LandBlows?

 

This is a player problem you're trying to selectively code out (or paywall off) when in fact, it has already been solved by the very people who would be affected by it.

 

Oh, and there's a single word that removes that whole issue: “password”.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Tippis

[NineLine]

this is not special for a carrier module, trolls are trolls and they can ruin their party by crashing into them just before the landing. i think you need to levae this to mods of the servers. they just ban them

 

But its only part of it, there is also the return on investment. Giving away these assets is a big loss, I know nobody wants to hear about what ED is making or not, but its all part of it.

 

Again, there seems like so many easy answers, but they arent so easy.

[NineLine]

…and how is that any different than the “havoc” the same Joe Blow causes on any other airport at the moment? Why is a hard solution required to keep out the Joe SeaBlows (assuming they don't pay for the privilege of disrupting the gathering anyway), rather than let the servers handle them the same way the handle the Joe LandBlows?

 

This is a player problem you're trying to selectively code out (or paywall off) when in fact, it has already been solved by the very people who would be affected by it.

 

As I have been saying, game/immersion breaking is only part of it, return on investment is the other, and ED has sunk a lot of time and money into this, it can't be understated. Giving even parts of it away are not necessarily in ED's best interest.

[MethWolf]

What about potentially keeping the collision model, except the wires so you cannot land.

 

If you do land anyway, cool I guess? You can't interact with the carrier, you can't contact the carrier, you can't use the catapults, or anything like that.

 

You can't spawn on the carrier, and you are not considered "landed" even if you do manage to touch down on the carrier. (meaning life loss on servers which implement limited lives, no rearming, no refuelling etc)

 

The odd part I guess would be the deck crew, this would be reaching, but it would be cool if the carrier crew was visible, but I would fully expect it not to be.

 

This is the most obvious solution beyond just considering it included in the $80 price tag of a carrier plane: carrier doesn't respond to you on comms and you can't catch wires or hook up the cat.

 

Shame all of this work on a carrier ops is gonna go to waste when nobody buys it.

[Tailhook]

Ok, guys let me try and give you some scenarios.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3915924&postcount=95

 

The only way to make this module work and keep everyone happy is the bare 3D model itself needs to be a free addition for the sim that everyone can land on and shoot off from. It doesn't have to be functional, it just has to be available server-wide. Whatever payware features there are should be configurable like suggested in my previous post. Give mission makers/server owners the ability to enable and disable things but also have specific things hard disabled for multiplayer, or something similar to that nature.

[MethWolf]

As I have been saying, game/immersion breaking is only part of it, return on investment is the other, and ED has sunk a lot of time and money into this, it can't be understated. Giving even parts of it away are not necessarily in ED's best interest.

 

This makes your previous "scenarios" comment seem in bad-faith.

[NineLine]

What's preventing that from happening when joe blow owns the carrier module? That's a problem with the individual, and they would probably be removed from the server for doing so.

 

There is more potential for game breaking when a player who doesn't have the module is trying to interact with it, or use it in any form.

 

We have not found a solution that works for 100% of trolls, and it's not just trolls, it could be someone new that doesn't know any better...

 

Just saying, you need to look at the entire picture.

[NineLine]

This makes your previous "scenarios" comment seem in bad-faith.

 

Not at all, I am trying to open your guy's eyes to all the issues with giving it away. There is no bad faith, at the end of the day ED is a business, we are not making games with billions of users, we are not rolling in cash, but at times we are making modules well above and beyond the development costs and time than that of your favourite cookie cutter MMO or FPS.

Edited May 19, 2019 by NineLine

[rjetster1]

This is the most obvious solution beyond just considering it included in the $80 price tag of a carrier plane: carrier doesn't respond to you on comms and you can't catch wires or hook up the cat.

 

Shame all of this work on a carrier ops is gonna go to waste when nobody buys it.

 

Ridiculous! ED is a business not a charity! You really think it will go to waste... lol!

[Tippis]

As I have been saying, game/immersion breaking is only part of it, return on investment is the other, and ED has sunk a lot of time and money into this, it can't be understated. Giving even parts of it away are not necessarily in ED's best interest.

And no-one is suggesting that you shouldn't get a return on that investment.

 

Quite the opposite: the people highlighting this problems are telling you the solution you've chosen will reduce your returns. You already have entire communities saying that they will not buy this module because, due to this single detail, they have zero use for it.

 

The proper solution does not involve giving anything away — even in parts. It involves letting people play together as they always have, thereby giving them a reason to actually buy the module at all, and over time perhaps even encouraging others to buy it too.

 

You have sunk a lot of time and money in this, and by choosing this implementation, that time and money will be wasted.

[Jester2138]

But you pay for it, your buds are flying an awesome pattern, all set up, gonna be a great stream today, and someone comes in on fire and crashes the deck, now you paid for that experience, and it's ruined by someone that just doesn't care about your experience.

 

It has to be a balance, and I feel like an advocate for you guys in a way, and I really ran over every scenario I could think of last night, and the MP just breaks in so many ways.

 

Don't worry - this won't be a problem. In the way you've set it up, nobody will use it in MP anyway, and few people will buy it at all.

 

Especially given Heatblur's upcoming carrier will be free to everyone.