Best Joystick/throttle combo for DCS

[Rayzer]

I’m currently using a Saitek X55 joystick/throttle (pre Logitech merge) and having lots of issues. The most common is erratic joystick movement even without touching the stick. I’ve tried all the suggestions/calibrations recommended on this forum without any positive results. It seems like this model has been an issue not just with this sim but others I use as well.

What are others using with good results? I want something that is simple and doesn’t want another college degree to learn to use!

I want some realism but willing to sacrifice that for ease of use. I have a cockpit set up with 3 screens and a pilot seat for the flight “feel”.

I’m using Windows 10, Nvidia graphics card with lots of Ram, AMD processor with many cores and lightening processing speed, lots of computer RAM, FSX, X Plane 10 and DCS with many purchased planes and terrains.

What joystick combo will give be the best simulation?

Thanks,

Tim

[Svsmokey]

I use CH , as their Hotas is not frighteningly expensive . No bling or gimmicks but they use quality switches and their products last pretty much forever . I do all bindings in the DCS controls menu . I have read many reports of other users being very happy with the Thrustmaster T1600m (for even less money) . And of course , almost half of all DCS users use the Thrustmaster Warthog .

[Supmua]

TM Warthog would be a fine choice as an upgrade to your setup. It’s readily available and a bit cheaper than competition. It is also the most moddable. When it breaks and things do break, the waiting period for replacement part is typically 1-1.5 wk rather than weeks or months.

 

A lot of time, unwanted joystick movement can be mitigated by increasing the center dead zone. Make sure you do that first before upgrading to anything.

[Gman109]

Extremely subjective subject, but here goes.

 

 

I've been collecting HOTAS for 20+ years. When I ran combatsim.com (editor) I used to get them all sent to me for reviews and eval, but even prior to that I'd purchased the majority on my own, and still continue to do so. I have several dozen hotas in my collection, comprising the majority of the "higher end" units offered over the years. Pic below of my primary gaming PC and just a fraction of what I have (these are the ones I have mounting plates for my Virpil and Monster mounts, and regularly use in games I'm currently playing, CH, WH, Cougar, Virpil, and VKB Gunfighters).

 

 

I'll do a very brief rundown on my opinion of the current offerings. I don't know much about the lower end stuff like the TM16000 etc, but I do know that it's a great bargain, as I have the TM TWC throttle that comes with one of the TM sets, and it's excellent for the $, better than the stand alone CH throttle for the money IMO.

 

 

CH Products - I've been using CH since they had the original "sim" stick with a single button on top and a trigger. I friend I fly with in AH3 that I've known since 2002 worked for CH before moving to a larger gaming company. CH was sold in 2007, and their QC took a bit of a hit, but they've come back a bit from that now IMO. Take apart a circa 2010 or so Fighter stick and a 2007 or earlier one, and the care taken in assembly is evident. Still despite any of this blahblahblah, CH remains excellent, and an old favorite of mine. Until I could replicate the soft feeling of the Fighterstick x/y axis with the VKB Gunfighter on lightest springs/cams, the CH Fighterstick was my "go to" stick for AH3 and any online sim game that required constant rapid movement and combat. For the $ CH 3 unit hotas is still one to be seriously considered for DCS or any sim IMO. One negative is that after 1 year they won't send you parts such as new hats, switches, or sensors/pots, you have to source them elsewhere or just buy a new unit.

 

 

Saitek - no, no and more no. I have a couple X65 which have held up mostly due to limited use, but the X55/56,52,45,36, have all had failures of one kind or another in not a ton of time being used. Just my experience, if you're going to spend over $200 USD on an X55 you should save a bit more and buy a complete CH hotas IMO.

 

 

Thrustmaster - good availability on the Warthog, price isn't horrible if you get one on sale. Quality is iffy IMO, I have 4 WH and a couple Cougars - all but one WH stick suffered from the "sticktion" issue and required breaking down and cleaning/re greasing, and replacing the ring with an aftermarket one. A pita, due to the poor quality and design of the gimbal, but when it works, it works well enough IMO. The stick itself is great as it's mainly metal, as are most of the buttons on it, which is a rarity. The throttle is alright as well, a few $ and you can upgrade the analogue mini stick and make it much better too. The WH isn't a bad option so long as you know that you may eventually have to take action regarding the sticktion issue. You'll also need pedals, but that's another subject.

 

 

VKB - excellent, but no throttle yet. I've had several Gunfighters, the first version along with 2 MK2revBs, and one of the new Kosomina sticks. Good stick, it's quality plastic, the gimbal is great, and with the springs provided you can make it as gentle as the CH sticks or much more firm if you desire. Availability is a pita, price is "you get what you pay for" sort of cost.

 

 

Virpil - excellent stick options, as well as throttle. Current throttle is fantastic, no analogue ministick though, but a new unit coming out shortly fixes that (old ones are all sold now IRRC). The T50 is great, it too has a new model coming out with a better and simpler gimbal system. The Warbrd is excellent too, less costly, can sit on your desk or in a desk mount. Multiple stick options, WW2 type sticks, space sim sticks (with an analogue mini stick on it), and Russian fighter type sticks (CM2). Excellent support from Virpil in my experience, and lots of innovation and new things coming from them as well. Cost is again commensurate with the product, also like VKB a "get what you pay for" sort of price.

 

 

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but for DCS these are the common options right now. IMO with what the OP is currently running, if $ is a consideration find yourself a good CH setup for now. I constantly check all the used sources here in Canada every day, and pick off used like new hotas all the time. Several Cougars and CH setups just in 2019, I got a like new Fighterstick and Throttle for less than $40USD delivered off of kijiji.ca (pics to prove it too). That's my advice for what it's worth. If you have the means, Viripl is my recommendation for a stick/throttle, plus they have pedals coming too you can upgrade to. You can use the "Space" stick which has a twist function for rudders on the Warbrd base for now if you want to go that route too.

 

 

https://imgur.com/mB3DOUU

[Sokol1_br]

The most common is erratic joystick movement even without touching the stick.

 

This erratic movement affect only stick or throttle too?

 

Since they are independently units can be due Saitek software.

 

If throttle are working OK -

, you can keep the throttle for a while and invest in a VPC or VKB base + grip.

 

Gman have describe well their pluses.

Another of plus of VPC is support Thrustmaster grips, basically by bolt the grip and load a appropriated profile in controller firmware.

 

VKB support too Tm grips, but being a kind of "Apple" require a electronic adapter - to be installed inside grip, plus a proprietary mechanical connector - both available "once a time"... :noexpression:

Edited May 30, 2019 by Sokol1_br

[Gman109]

This erratic movement affect only stick or throttle too?

 

Since they are independently units can be due Saitek software.

 

If throttle are working OK -

, you can keep the throttle for a while and invest in a VPC or VKB base + grip.

 

Gman have describe well their pluses.

Another of of VPC is support Thrustmaster grips, basically by bold the grip and load a appropriated profile in controller firmware.

 

VKB support too Tm grips, but being a kind of "Apple" require a electronic adapter - to be installed inside grip, plus a proprietary mechanical connector - both available "once a time"... :noexpression:

 

 

As I said, I knew I was forgetting a bunch of stuff.

 

 

My favorite combo is actually the Cougar stick on the Warbrd base. It's very light with stock gimbal springs/cams, as the stick is heavier than what it's designed primarily for (Virpil plastic sticks). For better or worse, Virpil went with the TM type pin connector for the sticks. You can pull them out a bit on the Virpil sticks to make them easier to connect. The Cougar stick has the pinky switch in a more comfortable place than the Warthog stick for me, which is why I prefer using it. It's nearly as light as a CH stick in this config. When the F16 comes out, I'll be using a modded/upgraded Cougar throttle with the better sensors/etc and USB connector, along with the Cougar Stick on the Warbrd gimbal. Perfect for the Falcon...

 

 

 

VKB you need an adapter to use TM sticks on their bases. The connector is superior and stronger IMO, however it's a PITA to get a hold of the adapters, always back-ordered, I have a single one, that's it. TM sticks work well on the GF base too.

[Gman109]

Gman, if you don't mind me asking, why do you collect so many HOTAS units? For myself, I keep my VKB Gunfighter MCG Pro/CH Pro Throttle/Slaw Vipers at my desk with a CH Fighterstick, Warthog Throttle and TM T16000M in the closet as backups.

 

 

Two reasons - first, as I said when I used to run the largest sim site on the net/community circa 99 to 2004 (combatsim.com, 250k registered forum users, 1 mil unique hosts per month, 40 mil hits/month, 15 mil IPO with Snowball right when the dot.com crash happened and killed us..etc etc), I would get every hotas made for free to test/eval. Pulling them apart and tinkering with them just became a hobby. I just enjoyed collecting them all. Now, I have 3 teens we're the legal guardians of now which all love PC gaming, and 2 are into flight sims and flying as much or more than I (niece is student in a flight school bach program right now, and is planning on joining the RCAF to be a pilot shortly too). Thus I need at least 4 hotas setups to keep the arguing to a minimum just to start with.

 

 

 

I also still collect the higher end units still, after spending much of the 2000s in the mid-east working, I retired on medical in 2010, and have had the means to pretty much do as I want so far as collecting/hobbies/etc. I buy at least one of every new thing that catches my eye so far as hotas and PC/Sim gaming.

 

 

 

I also collect pocket knives, and AR15 type rifles and carbines (hundreds of pocket knives, 20+ AR type rifles). I used to own and operate a large range and training facility in the firearms/training industry, and the same applies vis a vis collecting rifles/handguns here. I also worked for Sig Sauer as and adjunct instrcutor with the Sig Sauer Academy, and have a large number of Sig handguns, rifles, and sub/pistol caliber subguns.

 

 

So, PC gaming/tech is probably the least expensive hobby I have, and that the missus tolerates well because she's a PC gamer as well.

[Gman109]

The nephews and niece are only here on 2 weekends plus part of one week a month, and they were left more than ample $ for their care and education, and the rest of their lives if they want, so that's no issue.

 

Gunfighter Mk2Rev vs Virpil T50 or Mongoose.

 

I use both, for different things and for differing reasons. The Virpil units are easily mounted on desk clamps as inexpensive ones have been offered by Virpil for a long time. I do have 1/2 dozen Monster mounts now with corresponding mounting plates for most of the Hotas I want, but that's a recent addition. VKB doesn't offer a mounting solution, you have to purchase one from a company such as Monster, and a single mount is close to $200 CAD delivered here. So, I preferred to use the T50 and Virpil throttle for my DCS desk/pit, as I could have my mouse, keyboard, VR unit, and sticks all backed away from the desk, allowing a bit easier spinning with my swivel chair for VR use checking behind my 3 to 9 line.

 

The Gunfighter can be made much lighter than either of the Virpil sticks, unless you get some aftermarket springs for them. The spring kit included with the VKB stick allows me to make it even lighter than my CH Fighterstick, which I've used for close to 20 years now for competitive online WW2 play. I prefer to have a desktop stick for this, as I have my forearm resting on the desk surface with the stick base fairly far ahead on the desk, right up to the corner of the monitor. This allows me to spend long hours playing without my arm/hands tiring at all, even in constant combat. So for this type of gaming I prefer the Gunfighter, although I CAN make the Warbrd pretty light, with the Cougar stick on the Warbrd base, it's still sits a fair bit higher than I'd like for long hours of play, but it's still pretty good if you haven't developed muscle memory over the years as I have.

 

One thing I do think that VKB has over Virpil is the connectors. VKBs are very, very solid, they just feel strong when you click that stick in. Virpil uses the TM system, which leaves much to be desired by comparison. I know why they did this, to make TM sticks easily compatible, and I understand that decision from a business perspective, but most of me wishes they'd made a similar connector to VKB and just provided adapters.

 

 

All the stick types between the two companies, the VKB MCG and Kosomina, and the Virpil original T50, the new T50CM2, the WarBrd, and the Delta - it's 5/6 and pick em, they are all made of decent plastic construction, and all offer various things (ie analogue mini stick on some, etc).

 

 

The gimbal in the VKB GF Mk2Revb IMO was slightly superior to the original T50. The Warbrd's is simpler than the T50, a slight improvement over it IMO. The new T50 coming out looks fantastic, and will put it on top or at worst tied with the GF in terms of quality, efficient design, and ease of changing things out.

 

So, the TilDeer/tl;dr is I prefer the GF for WW2 games due to the nature of wanting to play on desktop, and the Virpil sticks/throttle for everything else, especially DCS. Should note that Virpil has a great throttle with an improved model with an alg/mini stick coming out in a month, while VKB has no throttle at all yet.

[Marcq]

Can't go wrong with CH Product, I love my setup

 

Marc..

[amyacker]

Two reasons - first, as I said when I used to run the largest sim site on the net/community circa 99 to 2004 (combatsim.com, 250k registered forum users, 1 mil unique hosts per month, 40 mil hits/month, 15 mil IPO with Snowball right when the dot.com crash happened and killed us..etc etc), I would get every hotas made for free to test/eval. Pulling them apart and tinkering with them just became a hobby. I just enjoyed collecting them all. Now, I have 3 teens we're the legal guardians of now which all love PC gaming, and 2 are into flight sims and flying as much or more than I (niece is student in a flight school bach program right now, and is planning on joining the RCAF to be a pilot shortly too). Thus I need at least 4 hotas setups to keep the arguing to a minimum just to start with.

 

 

 

I also still collect the higher end units still, after spending much of the 2000s in the mid-east working, I retired on medical in 2010, and have had the means to pretty much do as I want so far as collecting/hobbies/etc. I buy at least one of every new thing that catches my eye so far as hotas and PC/Sim gaming.

 

 

 

I also collect pocket knives, and AR15 type rifles and carbines (hundreds of pocket knives, 20+ AR type rifles). I used to own and operate a large range and training facility in the firearms/training industry, and the same applies vis a vis collecting rifles/handguns here. I also worked for Sig Mcx and adjunct instrcutor with the Sig Sauer Academy, and have a large number of Sig handguns, rifles, and sub/pistol caliber subguns.

 

 

So, PC gaming/tech is probably the least expensive hobby I have, and that the missus tolerates well because she's a PC gamer as well.

 

At least it's not a Hentai addiction though .

[Deano87]

When the F16 comes out, I'll be using a modded/upgraded Cougar throttle with the better sensors/etc and USB connector, along with the Cougar Stick on the Warbrd gimbal. Perfect for the Falcon...

 

Suuuurrrrrly the way to go for the Viper is the Realsim FSSB R3L with the Cougar stick? That’s as close as you’re going to get to the real deal.

[Gman109]

Suuuurrrrrly the way to go for the Viper is the Realsim FSSB R3L with the Cougar stick? That’s as close as you’re going to get to the real deal.

 

 

Possibly. I should probably add a caveat for $1000USD or under per single unit hotas, as both the Brunner and RealSim stick + base(Realsim's new F16 stick and the R3 base together) are well over that, and I've not collected any of that commercial/military grade-ish stuff. I've been following the Realsim stuff closely, I only have a few FFB/force sense sticks in my collection, never really liked force feed back, but the Realsim stuff may be something I pick up, ONCE they are completely compatible with DCS/etc. I've been following the threads for both Realsimulator and Bruner FFB here and on other sim boards, and despite FFB not ever having been "my thing" or something I collected, you may be right, and they may be "the" stick to have. Both seem to have big issues with compatibility/etc with DCS and other sims right now. Once that's all ironed out and there are good guides to follow for them, I'll pick both up I think and see how they run.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Gman109

[Fri13]

CH is the system that I would take if need for cheap and immediately. But, I would go back anymore to anything else than VKB.

 

I would do the same thing again, buy in to VKB slowly as you can by availability and/or money.

 

They are getting their throttle out, what is still a blind faith as nothing really is known about it for sure, meaning what features there will be. But I don't anymore ever take any tilting throttle, it needs to be linear one.

 

Thrustmaster.... I would avoid like a disease.

Virpil... A good option but part of thrustmaster problem.

CH.... You have limitations, but it works.

 

I don't speak for other high price brands with special/unique systems, but they are then those with own limitations and benefits.

[Deano87]

Possibly. I should probably add a caveat for $1000USD or under per single unit hotas, as both the Brunner and RealSim stick + base(Realsim's new F16 stick and the R3 base together) are well over that, and I've not collected any of that commercial/military grade-ish stuff. I've been following the Realsim stuff closely, I only have a few FFB/force sense sticks in my collection, never really liked force feed back, but the Realsim stuff may be something I pick up, ONCE they are completely compatible with DCS/etc. I've been following the threads for both Realsimulator and Bruner FFB here and on other sim boards, and despite FFB not ever having been "my thing" or something I collected, you may be right, and they may be "the" stick to have. Both seem to have big issues with compatibility/etc with DCS and other sims right now. Once that's all ironed out and there are good guides to follow for them, I'll pick both up I think and see how they run.

 

The FSSB R3 force sensing sticks have no compatibility issues with DCS or any other sim, they are just a simple joystick. It’s not force feedback which is a whole different issue, it’s force sensing which means the stick doesn’t move and it just uses load cells to measure the torque you are inputting to it, ala the real F-16 stick. If a sim/game works with a joystick the. It will work the FSSB.

[Gman109]

The FSSB R3 force sensing sticks have no compatibility issues with DCS or any other sim, they are just a simple joystick. It’s not force feedback which is a whole different issue, it’s force sensing which means the stick doesn’t move and it just uses load cells to measure the torque you are inputting to it, ala the real F-16 stick. If a sim/game works with a joystick the. It will work the FSSB.

 

 

I realize the R3 is a force sensing stick, I thought I made that clear (read my post again). I said that force feed back is something I'm not all that into, but that I am interested in the FSSB as it's force sensing, not force feedback. From what I've read in the various threads here, there are still issues with it, maybe that's just user problems, but every thread here has someone with some issue with them. They seem to be backordered according to their website, but I have an email in and hopefully they are available soon, as I wouldn't mind trying the R3 out, or their new F16 stick either.

 

 

I have the early CH force feedback unit (like a combat/fighterstick with a giant FFB base) and a couple others, and have 2 Saitek X65F which are force sensing. Again, neither are really my cup of tea, I find both to give up too much in terms of accuracy. Perhaps with a ton of time and practice one could get better, but I just find the non FS/FFB gimbals/sticks to be more precise for me. It took my a fair bit to not wallow all over the sky like a drunken cow with the X65F, I'm sure it'd be a repeat performance with the R3, but time will tell on that I guess.

 

 

I was also referring to the Brunner force feedback stick as well so far as it not being DCS compatible, and it isn't, not by a long shot yet.

 

 

You are correct though still, if someone in DCS wants the closest thing to an F16 stick, the FSSB/R3 and a Cougar or even WH stick due to the nature of the base (force sense) is probably as close as one can get. Throttle wise it's still the Cougar for now IMO, and since I don't really want to be playing PvP with force sense or FFB, probably a T50/Warbrd base and the Cougar stick is the next best option.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Gman109

[Deano87]

I realize the R3 is a force sensing stick, I thought I made that clear (read my post again). I said that force feed back is something I'm not all that into, but that I am interested in the FSSB as it's force sensing, not force feedback. From what I've read in the various threads here, there are still issues with it, maybe that's just user problems, but every thread here has someone with some issue with them. They seem to be backordered according to their website, but I have an email in and hopefully they are available soon, as I wouldn't mind trying the R3 out, or their new F16 stick either.

 

 

I have the early CH force feedback unit (like a combat/fighterstick with a giant FFB base) and a couple others, and have 2 Saitek X65F which are force sensing. Again, neither are really my cup of tea, I find both to give up too much in terms of accuracy. Perhaps with a ton of time and practice one could get better, but I just find the non FS/FFB gimbals/sticks to be more precise for me. It took my a fair bit to not wallow all over the sky like a drunken cow with the X65F, I'm sure it'd be a repeat performance with the R3, but time will tell on that I guess.

 

Ok few things, FSSB R3L Stick is available from stock right now, a friend of mine ordered one yesterday and it was shipped this morning. Secondly there are no incompatibilities with DCS and FSSB sticks, as far as the sim is concerned its just a joystick. I can't comment of people having issues with them but I know 8 ppl (soon to be 9) who have them including myself and they've not had any issues which is far better than I can say for the Warthog lol. I'd like to see the posts you mentioned where people are having problems with their R3, maybe I can help. I' keep an eye out around here and I haven't seen them.

 

My experience precision wise of Force Sensing sticks (FSSB R1, R2 and R3L) seems to be the exact opposite of yours. Especially when they are bolted down well enough to use the full load setting of 25lb for max deflection, then you can be extremely precise. But thats just my 2 cents.

[Habu_69]

I have been using a Cougar stick retrofitted with FSSB R2 daily for about 5 years with absolutely No issues. Married it with a Warthog throttle (with cursorstick mod) about 3 years ago and am very happy with this kit. Some of the new equipment, like Virpil, tho might be the way to go, depending on affordability.

[Gman109]

Ok few things, FSSB R3L Stick is available from stock right now, a friend of mine ordered one yesterday and it was shipped this morning. Secondly there are no incompatibilities with DCS and FSSB sticks, as far as the sim is concerned its just a joystick. I can't comment of people having issues with them but I know 8 ppl (soon to be 9) who have them including myself and they've not had any issues which is far better than I can say for the Warthog lol. I'd like to see the posts you mentioned where people are having problems with their R3, maybe I can help. I' keep an eye out around here and I haven't seen them.

 

My experience precision wise of Force Sensing sticks (FSSB R1, R2 and R3L) seems to be the exact opposite of yours. Especially when they are bolted down well enough to use the full load setting of 25lb for max deflection, then you can be extremely precise. But thats just my 2 cents.

 

This is what I see on their order page, still today - It's not even been a full day since I emailed them, and once I get an email back, perhaps then stock/etc will be made clear. There isn't a "Buy" button or option that I can see. Maybe I'm in the wrong spot, but the R3/Warthog is top of the column under consumer, and by description they say it's their newest and most up to date model, which is obviously the one I want.

 

 

ONLY AVAILABLE UNDER REQUEST FOR PROFESSIONAL USE

Contact sales@realsimulator.com for ordering information

Availability: UNDER DEMAND

 

 

Again, I don't have any experience with higher end force sensing sticks as stated, I only have the x65f on which to base an opinion - that and the 4 pages of threads you get when you search "FSSB R3" here, 1/3 or more of which are posts with people selling theirs. I'll clarify(and repeat) - the problems I'm reading aren't with the hardware or compatibility (that's primarily a Brunner issue, to restate), but with users having issues with setting them up or understanding how to do so, at least that's what I've read here and on 2 other sim forums (IIRC it's against the rules to link to these).

 

I do suspect/have concerns, that the FSSB/R3 will have much the same functionality of the X65 in terms of sensitivity and precision. I don't know any DCS PvP players that use one (RealSim FSSB). It may be precise for you when you don't have to move it under stress conditions, but have you put that to the test where it is truly under trial, versus human opponents especially in guns head to head fights? I'm asking, not telling. This is the criteria I use when determining a stick's accuracy/potential - I can fly around with my left foot if I want, and call it "precise", but if it isn't when the rubber meets the road in terms of in game combat conditions vs other skilled human players, for me, it's not so much. One issue I've seen players here in DCS mention is that, and I quote from Supmua here, "it is difficult to input small amount of force near the center.". This issue is one that originally plagued the first Warthog Cougars when they first came out, due to software and hw issues upon release, and it made it pretty much unusable for COMPETITIVE online play, as it makes shooting, in particular lining up and making corrections for gun shots, extremely difficult. This is one of my specific concerns, as well as problems to which I've been referring to.

 

Still, I'm going to try one out, if nothing else just to have one to mess with and use with the F16C module here(even if only in offline or coop multiplayer/etc), as the FSSB/R3 wasn't high on my radar until this thread. Some of the Monster mount plates I have are already compatible with it too, an added surprise/bonus.

 

 

Lastly, I'll be looking for some input/etc once I get mine from those of you with experience with them here (Deano+anyone else), as there are literally no Youtube vids out there in terms of in depth how-to guides, or even a single review, just a couple vids from the company showing basic things and a couple vids about issues/solutions users have had.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Gman109

[Deano87]

Gman, they don’t sell the stock R3 any more. They only sell the R3 Lighting. Which they have in stock. It’s a newer and improved version of the base.

 

http://realsimulator.com/html/fssb_r3_lighting.html

 

They also do an F-16 angle adapter if you want the correct angle for the F-16 side stick.

 

http://realsimulator.com/html/f-16-c_angle_adapter.html

 

Also all of the people I personally know with FSSB stick fly PVP and a few of them also fly precision formation flying and find it much more precise then a conventional stick, because a lot more force is required to reach max control input you are able to adjust your inputs very carefully. Regarding the twitchiness around centre, yes this can be an issue but curves and a small dead zone effectively ameliorate this issue and can help tune to your desired level of breakout force and initial sensitivity. Also if you have a mounting system that can stand it running it 1:1 force mode makes the centre much more easy to manage. The only issue I’ve known with the FSSB isn’t directly related to it but is actually to do with the Warthog/cougar stick, the metal adapter piece that the locking nut sits on and contains the plug is apparently cast from very low quality metal and when using an FSSB R3 in full force mode can quite often shear off(!). So many people upgrade those with high strength steel ones from Debolestis‘s Shapeways shop: https://www.shapeways.com/product/M7GXUWE2B/thrustmaster-joystick-tailpiece-m?optionId=58829258

[Gman109]

Ah ok thanks. They don't make that very clear, in fact the opposite, that the R3 Lightning is the current model, what with the R3 Warthog having the description it has, plus being at the top of the column. I'll order the Lightning on Monday then, plus the Shapeways part.