Someone knows a good tutorial about "old school" FAC?

[Kongamato]

I´m interested in "old school" Korea or Vietnam-era FAC missions with the Sabre or the F-5E as attacker and some slower plane as AFAC (maybe the C-101, the Mustang or even a scout helicopter or ground troups) marking the targets with white smoke or giving coordinates, but it´s difficult to correctly create the mission with the editor, and to correctly fly it following the instructions of the AI FAC.

 

Someone knows a good tutorial about the creation of those kind of missions and the correct way to understanding the instructions or the AFAC and follow them? thanks in advance.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Kongamato

[kengou]

Interesting question. I have no input other than speculation, but I imagine back in those days they would talk a pilot visually onto the target using landmarks, i.e. "east side of the river". Plus smoke markers. For an AI FAC in a mission editor, I would set them up to smoke a target (maybe laser depending on the era you're going for) then insert some dialog visually describing where the target is in relation to land features, buildings, and friendlies.

[Kongamato]

Interesting question. I have no input other than speculation, but I imagine back in those days they would talk a pilot visually onto the target using landmarks, i.e. "east side of the river". Plus smoke markers. For an AI FAC in a mission editor, I would set them up to smoke a target (maybe laser depending on the era you're going for) then insert some dialog visually describing where the target is in relation to land features, buildings, and friendlies.

 

The AI FAC in DCS gives you 9 lines of information when you ask for a target, including coordinates of the target. It´s pretty cool, but extremelly confusing since the coordinates are something like "EG108448" or similar, references to the F10 map. There exists the posibility of the FAC using "Willie Peter" rockets (white phosphorus) to mark the target if the plane or helicopter can carry them, but I find really difficult to make the AI FAC use those rockets when I configure a mission with the Editor. Normally, it says "No mark", that means that is not going to mark the target, only provides that confusing coordinates that don´t help at all. That´s why I would like a tutorial.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Kongamato

[Kang]

I'm afraid you can't make them act like in the good ol' days. Only advice I have is that the ground based JTAC's are generally a bit more successful in providing WP marks.

[Pikey]

Might not be a solution but CTLD script can smoke for you and allow you to drop smoke from helis too. Could be programatically done to add smoke from menu.

Quite sure smoke was required more in featureless terrain without decent line of sight or laser/modern optics. Fire correction would also have been a thing. Lots of dangerous attack profiles that modern warfare doctrines wouldn't tolerate.

As for the "process", I think watching Vietnam footage might reveal some process used. All these processes are quite evolved nowadays and the history of them evolving is fascinating. There's no way to replicate that in game without two people. grab a buddy, do some research, extrapolate the best you can and give it a go, its a lot of fun in MP.

[TLTeo]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link here or not, but look up "Airpower versus a fielded force". It's a fantastic comparison between FAC missions in Vietnam and Kosovo.

 

I've been thinking of creating some FAC C-101 or L-39 missions myself, but unfortunately I haven't had time to get them done. I did take a look at Moose and it definitely comes with the tools necessary to script it though, even in single player. I actually have quite a few ideas on how to write the scripts to handle it.

[Shadoga]

Entry Level (A)FAC article for mil-Flightsimmers:

https://www.simhq.com/_air/air_092a.html

Also availble as .pdf

[Kongamato]

Entry Level (A)FAC article for mil-Flightsimmers:

https://www.simhq.com/_air/air_092a.html

Also availble as .pdf

 

Thanks so much. It´s really interesting. :thumbup:

[Kongamato]

My main problem is, when I make a mission with the editor 50-60's style (no laser or IR, only willie peter), the AFAC (C-101, L-39...) doesn´t mark the target with smoke rockets most of the times, only provides coordinates that are useless. Maybe the AFAC only marks targets when there is no danger at all (unarmed target and no armed units near the targuet), or I´m doing something wrong... maybe the AI AFAC system is too limited right now in DCS... I don´t know. That´s why I would like tutorials or videotutorials of the making of the mission with the editor and the flying of the mission itself. If someone knows something like that in YT or other site, I would appreciate.

[TLTeo]

Yea I doubt the editor on its own will allow that. The only way I can see that working out is with lua scripts (particularly Moose).

[Kang]

I'm sure you have, but just to make sure:

Have you set your FAC to most insane ROE through a waypoint prior to the target area? If you give them excellent skill, make sure they are set not to abort mission and order them not to do any defensive manoeuvres you might have a chance they actually perform. Still fiddly, though.

[Kongamato]

I'm sure you have, but just to make sure:

Have you set your FAC to most insane ROE through a waypoint prior to the target area? If you give them excellent skill, make sure they are set not to abort mission and order them not to do any defensive manoeuvres you might have a chance they actually perform. Still fiddly, though.

 

I´m eager to receive advices because there are a lot of things I don´t know. The last mission I made it was pretty simple: an C-101 AFAC with gun pod and WP rockets and a F-5E (me). The AI C-101 was "excelent" skill and the flight plan was taking off from Batumi and one wp to the "X" near Kobuleti, and then orbiting at 6000 ft over that point, the target area. The target was several BMP-1 advancing south. The ROE was "return fire" and reaction to enemy fire,"evade fire". Maybe I should selec t"cease fire" and "no reaction to enemy fire" to make the AFAC mark the target?

[Kang]

It's worth a try. 'No reaction to enemy fire' makes sure they stay on their mission. Obviously their chances of survival decrease, though.

[Fri13]

Not possible to this far. Maybe in future we might see a realistic FAC and ground troops, once we get realistic hand grenade smokes instead those 300 meters tall smoke pillars that are visible from 30km range.

 

And then we need any ground unit to be able smoke their location or if enemy is near by (like 50 meters) then smoke them, and talk over radio by requesting support, telling their and enemy location relative to the smoke(s) by range and heading, and then type.

 

You would really need to be close by to see the smokes, be able to quickly look your compass and estimate the ranges and then engage.

 

And that works with anything modern as well. As you can't be giving a fire support to someone from 30 km range or at 8 km altitude. You need to be there just 1 km away and at 300-500 meter altitude, ready to engage in 10 seconds.

[Mule]

There is a superb series of videos on

of an F-16 FAC in Afghanistan. There is commentary describing what is going on and how it is coordinated with 2 smoke markers. Very easy to understand and makes a lot of sense.

[Kongamato]

There is a superb series of videos on

of an F-16 FAC in Afghanistan. There is commentary describing what is going on and how it is coordinated with 2 smoke markers. Very easy to understand and makes a lot of sense.

 

Thanks a lot. It´s very interesting, but I was thinking in tutorials for the simulator: the editor of missions what we can expect from the AI AFAC.

 

I have been doing some test the last weekend with different ROE, reaction to threats, etc. and for me it´s almost imposible to get the AFAC to mark targets with the smoke rockets. :(

 

I would like to know (and I suppose, also other users of the F-86, F-5E, Mig-19 and other 50-80´s planes without laser or IR sensors) if someone is able to create missions in witch the AI AFAC marks the targets with WP, or that´s actually a feature very limited and something that ED should improve.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Kongamato