TM F/A-18C Hornet, Warthog and Cougar grips disassembly and OTTO switch upgrade

[DeadMeat]

Close the grip up first. Place the spring in the recess and push the lever into place on top.

You have to do it just right so the pin can go through it and the lever to hold it in place.

[speedbird5]

Thanks, that’s what I have been trying to do for two straight hours and I cannot get it. Very frustrating.

[speedbird5]

Hi Deadmeat.

 

Also I noticed the plastic part of the tactile switch for the paddle is bent over and it definitely looks like it will fail.

 

When I do eventually get the paddle back in there I won’t be able to guarantee that the plastic part won’t be bent.

 

If that fails do you know what replacement tactile switch from EBay I could buy ?

 

Thanks again

Edited July 19, 2020 by speedbird5

[DeadMeat]

Not sure, would have to measure to be sure but I looks like a regular 6x6x6 tact switch.. If you get the size right any cheap switch will do. If you want to go for industrial spec, try Omron branded ones. Get your caliper out before you order anything :)

[speedbird5]

Not sure, would have to measure to be sure but I looks like a regular 6x6x6 tact switch.. If you get the size right any cheap switch will do. If you want to go for industrial spec, try Omron branded ones. Get your caliper out before you order anything :)

 

Thanks Deadmeat. Still struggling....

[The Burrito]

I'm going to replace the buttons on my Warthog grip and throttle with OTTO at some point. I've got two for the master mode and pinky, but apparently everybody buys just the red buttons and they're out of stock until September. I have everything I need, but in case I screw up I'm gonna need more wire to splice in, I think. What's the gauge on the stick's wiring?

[DeadMeat]

Not sure, they're super thin and flimsy. Prone to breaking if you stare too hard at them..

 

If you just need to extend the existing wiring a little bit to cover for mistakes, any thin mounting wire will do. It is not carrying a significant load.

 

When you remove the old buttons you should do it leaving as much of the existing wire as possible. Ideally just desolder wires at the switch. I've only ever had to extend wires for the pinky on the throttle after a few too many f* ups

[shu77]

This is a very useful thread, thank you for sharing.

[Icebeat]

awesome work!

[Ranma13]

I picked up 3 of the trim hats from the eBay auction:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/381677953240

 

I haven't installed them yet, but I don't think I will. Each one feels a little bit different from one another; 2 tend to bind when pushing them to the right, and 1 is mostly good (it still binds, but only very slightly compared to the other 2). The main issue though is that the spring force is very heavy, which is fine when you're using gloves and flying in the actual aircraft and need a heavy spring to prevent the switch from getting activated accidentally, but not so much for home use when I'm using it with my bare hands and using it for other functions where I need to press it often.

 

On the plus side, the Otto P1 switch fits in both the pickle button and pinky button slots, so I'll be doing that mod.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Ranma13

[DeadMeat]

None of the the trim hats I bought had binding issues. Also, I found the actuation force to be fine with and without gloves. Once I had the switch mounted in the grip it felt perfectly fine.

 

But sure, it is a good idea to decide if you like it or not before you start taking the dremel to the grip. It is pretty much a oneway mod :)

[Ranma13]

I picked up various Otto push button switches and someone may find this comparison useful:

 

 

Both the Otto P1 and P8 switches come in 2.5lb and 4lb activation force variants. The Otto P1-1 switch is the one most people recommend, but it has a rather long body that won't fit into some of the holes on the Warthog stick without modifications. The Otto P8-1 has a shorter body and has two different actuator heights, 0.250" (style A) and 0.187" (style C). The 0.250" is just a tiny bit shorter than the P1-1 actuator, whereas the 0.187" version is slightly taller than the stock Thrustmaster button (the actuator is the same height, but the body on the P8 is taller). Although the P8 button has a version with a black body, only the silver body version is normally stocked.

 

Feeling-wise, both are very close. The P1 has ever so slightly more travel than the P8, but if I blind-folded you and asked you to tell the difference between the two, I doubt you'd be able to differentiate them.

 

For both of the push buttons on the F/A-18 stick (pickle and pinky button), the Otto P1 will fit with no problems.

 

For the Warthog stick, only the pinky button can fit the P1 switch. The paddle switch requires the P8 style C because the paddle will be pushed too far outwards otherwise and won't line up with the hole for the rod that holds it in place. The pickle and index finger buttons will fit the P1 switch, but will be tilted slightly because the solder lugs rest on top of a hard stop inside the stick. Although the stock TM switch has the same body length as the P1, it only has wire leads instead of solder lugs, and the Warthog internals weren't designed for the solder lugs. You'd have to cut grooves in the Warthog body to make room for the solder lugs, or you have to cut the solder lugs to fit. The P8 switch will fit in all holes with no modifications needed.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Ranma13

[DeadMeat]

A-10C (Warthog) grip: mil-spec button upgrade

 

Thank you, that's an excellent comparison. Really shows the differences.

 

Totally agree that P8 are preferred - if you can source them :) they can be hard to find.

 

P1s are readily available on e.g. Mouser (or cheaper places if you're in the US) I will still recommend them if anyone is interested in upgrading their TM grip - warthog or hornet. Not cougar. Just don't. Buy a warthog and save yourself the pain.

 

P1s will fit the warthog "pretty fine" - with a few caveats:

• The pickle/thumb switch will tilt slightly outwards without modification to either switch solder lugs or internal grip structure (very little grinding required) I live with the tilt :)
  
• Index finger switch has negligible tilt - it will protrude more than stock however, but not enough to be an issue in practice.
  
• Pinkie switch fits fine - protrudes a little more than stock, but the lever below is angled away so it doesn't get in the way (unlike the Cougar)
  
• Lever switch - fits P1 but you do have to grind/sand the lever a bit to make it fit, and dial the set screw all the way back.
  

In conclusion - only the lever really requires some real modification to fit P1.. But still we're talking a bit of sanding. Nothing that compromises the structure of the grip.

 

(My) recommended switch list for reference (repost)

• Pickle/thumb: P1-11121 (4 lbf red)
  
• Lever: P1-11122 (4 lbf black)
  
• Index: P1-11118 (2.5 lbf gray)
  
• Pinkie: P1-11118 (2.5 lbg gray)
  

 

Reposting my pictures here from another thread on the topic.

Top part, showing slight tilt of pickle switch and protrusion of index finger switch:

 

Pinkie switch protrusion and modified lever - sanding is not visible.

 

Lever sanded on the sides facing the grip. Check the fit periodically to avoid removing too much.

Edited September 15, 2020 by DeadMeat

[Ranma13]

I was curious how the trim switch feels when mounted and I have a spare broken Warthog grip lying around, so I Dremel'ed out the trim switch hole to fit it. For comparison, the stock hole is about the same size as the other holes, so quite a bit of material has to be removed:

 

 

The metal tabs on the inside of the body also have to be removed:

 

 

 

The switch though fits great and looks like it was made for the grip:

 

 

 

 

However, while it does feel better mounted (the spring force doesn't feel as strong as I initially reported), it's still a lot heavier than I'd like it to be, and it's just not for me.

 

I also recorded this video with some other Otto switches:

 

cROL7elmzyo

 

If I had my choice, I'd want all the hats to use Otto T4-T switches. While it's not authentic to the actual stick, the tactile click feels very, very good and satisfying to actuate.

[DeadMeat]

Nice dremel work there :)

 

The Warthog grip is not really suited for the T4 trim switch since you remove so much internal structure to make it fit that the top part of the stick becomes unstable. I have it working keeping a cut down center bracket in place, but it is a little wobbly right now.

 

I'm testing to see what works best to keep the grip top stable without having to resort to strong epoxies to keep it together. I mean I'd like to be able to take it apart again for service!

[DeadMeat]

A-10C (Warthog) grip: mil-spec trim switch upgrade

 

Here's my take on the trim switch mod for the Warthog with added details about wiring for those interested.

 

The clickity is much improved (in my opinion), but it is not an easy mod and I haven't solved a few issues with fit, so be warned :huh:

 

I installed the same OTTO T4-0016 trim switch that I put in the Hornet grip only I painted the hat gray to match original switch:

 

 

The switch should be water tight but I masked it off anyways before painting it. One layer Tamiya white spray primer, two layers Tamiya AS-7 gray, two layers matte clear varnish to seal it in:

 

To install the mod, you'll need to say goodbye to the warranty :bye_3: cross your fingers, open up the grip, and unplug the trim, DMS, TMS and pickle switches from the PCB:

 

Remove the switches from the front/face piece by carefully pushing the tab on each side and pushing the whole switch out from the back. Unscrew and remove the center bracket from the front piece. Dremel out the hole in the front piece to fit the larger OTTO trim switch. A lot of material will have to go:

 

Cut out the right side of the center bracket until the trim switch fits. Be sure to leave the screw posts intact so you can put the grip together again. I used a hack saw here to quickly remove a big chunk and then a dremel to get to the final bits off:

 

Desolder the wires from the stock TM trim switch to leave their full length intact.

Cut the OTTO trim switch wires down to 5 cm (2") and connect them with the corresponding TM wires:

 

The Warthog wire colors are identical to the TM Hornet trim switch. Note that you'll need to connect two OTTO common wires to the single TM common wire, e.g. blue and dark green to the TM yellow. The unused OTTO wires and the mesh wire can be removed completely.

 

Cut away material from the tabs on the right side piece to fit the trim switch:

 

Put the switches back in the front piece and click it back onto the left side piece.

Tuck the trim switch wires below the trim switch and snake them around the back between the TMS and DMS:

 

Plug everything back into PCB and close the grip back up carefully to avoid pinching any wires.

Unless you fried the PCB, or broke the grip structure in the process you should be golden.

 

Only one small issue persists: the top cover wobbles a bit when you press the trim switch.

This is mainly because we had to remove so much material from the center bracket that otherwise holds it in place. I use hot glue to keep it secure - not a very nice solution, but it works...

 

Have fun and don't say I didn't warn ya :smilewink:

Edited September 15, 2020 by DeadMeat

[Noluck]

Good thread. I used to design and build F/A-18 simulators for the military and I'm very used to the real thing. Good writeup and job here. I wish I still had that box of switches that were left over from the projects.

 

 

The TM throttle grips are a joke though. If I can find my real pair of actual Hornet throttle grips I'm going to try and install them.

 

Keep up the good work, I'll be doing mine after a while.

 

 

---

[DeadMeat]

Thanks I hope the thread can be useful reference for people that want to upgrade or just fix problems with their grips. Good luck on messing with the throttle :) I'll be sharing a few upgrades on that soon!

[rdibley]

There are just a few tips I'd like to add to your post on the F-18 grip:

 

A tip for geting the nosewheel steering switch out without too much force or damage: The switch has two plastic retaining tabs that have to be pressed in to remove the switch. In my case, one of the tabs was on the near side and one on the far side, hidden from view. Use the short end of an allen wrench on the far side to reach around the switch and push in the plastic retainer tab while keeping pressure on the switch to push it out of the mounting hole. When you get it, you will feel a slight movement of the switch as the tab clears the opening and starts into the hole. Keeping pressure on the switch, then depress the near tab and it comes right out.

 

Take a picture of the paddle switch assebmly before taking it apart. I didn't, and it took me a bit of trial and error to get it back together. I think I have it right, but I'm not 100% sure I put the washer on the correct side. If anyone knows or can take pictures of their unmodified joystick, please post them! Also, the shaft for the nosewheel has an E-clip on one side and an O-ring on the other. I didn't realize it was an O-ring and removed the E-clip, but It's a lot easier to remove the O-ring.

[rdibley]

First, thanks for figuring out the switches and posting your tutorial. I bought a couple OTTO switches back in January and only got around to replacing them last week. I added another unnecessarily complex but awesome modification that you might be interested in.

 

The Problem:

 

After maybe 6 months of regular use with my F-18 stick, I started noticing a "clunk" in the pitch axis that would occur when going from large positive to large negative stick motion, and vice versa. It took me a while to narrow down what was causing it, but I finally figured out that the joystick shaft to grip interface was loose. Not so loose that you could wiggle it with your hand, or that it would happen with small (low stick force) motion, but when you input large pitch commands, it would slip and rotate to one side. Move it in the other direction and it would slip and rotate to the other side. You don't notice the change in angle, but you can feel it when it happens. I describe it as a "clunk," but maybe there's a better name for it.

 

 

 

Inside the joystick, the shaft has two forks on each side, the one to the rear of the joystick being screwed to the left grip half, and the one at the front of they joystick squeezed together when the two halves are joined with the external screw. There are curved ribs on each of the grip halves that are supposed to secure around the shaft to hold it in place.

 

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In reality, the ribs aren't an exact fit, so there's a little bit of wobble without the screws in place. Tightening the rear screw secures the shaft, but the pitch axis is really only secured by friction. The roll axis seems to be unaffected in that the screw seems to keep it in place, but maybe I just didn't notice it. I tightened the rear screw and that fixed the issue for a short time, but eventually it loosened up again. With the forces that are put on the sick with regular use, you just can't expect the friction fit of this one screw to keep it from moving.

 

The Solution:

 

After modding the two OTTO switches, I bedded the shaft to each of the grip halves with epoxy and filler. Now it's a perfect fit and there's no clunk anymore. I'll warn you that I would not recommend it if you don't have much experience with this, and there's a better than average chance that you might glue the two halves of the grips together permanently. (I nearly did that myself)

I started with the left side, and put non-hardening clay on the top and bottom of the cavity where the epoxy would go. This keeps it from flowing out of either end around the shaft. I cleaned the shaft and sprayed it with PVA release to keep the epoxy from adhering to it. I used MGS L285 epoxy and West Systems 404 filler, mixing it to a gel consistency that wouldn't run. I filled the cavity most of the way, then installed the shaft and screwed it in place, and pressed the clay into the shaft to seal it up. I then added enough epoxy in the small gap so that it was filled to the top of the cavity.

 

 

 

After about a day, I removed the shaft (a little stuck, but eventually came out) and the clay and cleaned it up. I then blocked off the other side with clay, making a similar cavity as on the left, and put some more clay around the base and in the screw hole.

 

 

I removed the wiring harness from the shaft (keep track of the direction) and plugged the top end of the shaft with more clay to keep the epoxy out. The top of the shaft would press into the clay as you put the two halves together.

 

I installed the shaft on the left grip and applied more PVA to the combined assembly in the area where the right grip would make contact. Then poured epoxy and filler into the right side clay cavity and secured the two halves with clamps, keeping the right grip facing down. This is where you can really get yourself into trouble, and I nearly glued the two halves together myself. Since it's closed up, you have to guess at the amount of epoxy to fill, and you cant wipe away excess that might overflow. I used too much epoxy and it overflowed out of the clay cavity and around the screw that attaches the shaft to the left grip. It did not come apart easy, but I eventually got it. I had to later replace the screw as I bent the original while trying to get the two halves apart. If I were to do it again, I would do progressive fills, adding a little at a time to the right grip. This would mean more cleanup, more fixing the clay, and more applications of PVA, but it reduces the chances of gluing it together permanently.

 

After a fair amount of cleanup and trimming, the shaft now fits perfectly with no wobble, even without the screws. Time will tell, but while I understood why it would loosen up with use before, I just can't see how it could happen again after this mod.

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the epoxy and filler, I used what I happened to have, but you can probably get similar results with other products. Just make sure to use a good release film. If you're looking for one-stop shopping, Brownells makes a rifle bedding kit (Item FGA01114) that sells for around $30 and includes everything you'd need: the release material, hardener, and epoxy with the thickener already added.

 

 

 

[DeadMeat]

That seems like a pretty solid solution. A very neat result!

 

I wonder if threadlocker on the screw could extend the time before it gets wobbly? Or maybe rid it completely? Something to consider for the folks that are not comfortable with epoxy I guess :)

[rdibley]

Threadlock would definitely work in the short term, and maybe permanently? I don't know. It's a simple fix and worth a try.

 

You got me thinking... another idea would be to use bonding putty. It's like a stick of clay that you knead, then it hardens like an epoxy. You wouldn't need to use much, just a little on the curved ribs on the right grip, and then wrap wax paper around the shaft as you press it into the putty.

[Joe Lighty]

This epoxy fix is a really good idea and very well executed, thanks for taking the time to post your solution here.

But, I've said it before and I'll say it again - this shouldn't be necessary for a grip would cost me $369 AUD - approx $268 USD.

[ig002]

Hello Everyone,

 

I just got my hands on a Thrustmaster F-18 grip really cheap from Ebay because it was used one for some movie or photo shooting and it looks quite weathered. The problem is that they had to disassemble the stick and remove the circuit board for some reason. So I started to reassemble it and based on your pictures I managed to reconnect all the cables. After testing I found out that the Sensor Control Switch Left doesn't work. All other buttons are working except this one. I guess there is a problem with the wire. Is there a way to replace this cable? Can I replace the whole bundle for this button or just one wire from it? How is this connected to the switch itself? Is it possible to disassemble the SCS? If yes how?

 

I am more familiar with mechanical assemblies but not too much with electrics so I would appriciate any help.

 

Thanks!

[DeadMeat]

Hello Everyone,

 

I just got my hands on a Thrustmaster F-18 grip really cheap from Ebay because it was used one for some movie or photo shooting and it looks quite weathered. The problem is that they had to disassemble the stick and remove the circuit board for some reason. So I started to reassemble it and based on your pictures I managed to reconnect all the cables. After testing I found out that the Sensor Control Switch Left doesn't work. All other buttons are working except this one. I guess there is a problem with the wire. Is there a way to replace this cable? Can I replace the whole bundle for this button or just one wire from it? How is this connected to the switch itself? Is it possible to disassemble the SCS? If yes how?

 

I am more familiar with mechanical assemblies but not too much with electrics so I would appriciate any help.

 

Thanks!

 

Well, unless something is broken on the main board, perhaps the connector is not seated properly or it is either the wires or the switch itself that are faulty.

 

The wires are pretty fragile and can easily get pinched when you close up the grips. I've had this happen on pretty much all my grips and throttles :lookaround:

If you check out the first post here, you can see how each switch has a wiring bundle that connect to the main board. Try and take the grip apart again and separate out the bundle that connects the sensor switch.

 

Check if there's a pinch along the wires and if so you'll need to splice in a piece of wire make the connection. Any wire will do but the smaller the better since it is pretty tight in the neck of the grip.

 

If there's no visible pinch it may be a faulty connection at or in the switch itself. You should be able to remove it from the grip and unscrew the back plate to check if there's any loose connections inside or if any of the tact switches are broken. You should be able to replace these if that is the case.