Pilot fatigue under G's

[Pâte]

Hi guys. Got an idea watching the video about fatigue accumulation on the heatblur tomcat structure. But what about the pilot ?

 

Question for the devs, is this feature is something feasible ? Question for the pilots, would you like this feature or not ?

--> Simulate the fatigue of the pilot, reducing his resistance against G the more you play with them.

 

 

Would be fairly interesting to have the same thing applied on the pilot in DCS. And no longer fly Superman pilot. Right now we black out at a substained 9G or more, but no big deal you can release and pull again without any problem. Or you can keep substained high G turn forever like really forever.

 

Here some studies about G's on the pilots refering to tolerance being affected by flight time & G's amount

- https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7527/aa4e755c4fdb6f817b580741bd57fa4e7872.pdf

- https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/adb7/c394744ac433f9e196bf9d859b088c1a1dbb.pdf?_ga=2.190256558.427427360.1568327426-301491428.1568327426

- https://books.google.fr/books?id=BlbmBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=g+tolerance+and+fatigue&source=bl&ots=ssx_4aw_jg&sig=ACfU3U1CXkiMPT7D_jWlHGAb8LpxQu9lug&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiFuZLVzMvkAhVh8-AKHX87BrsQ6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=g%20tolerance%20and%20fatigue&f=false

 

I think that this would add whole new layer on the simulation, forcing us to think about resting the pilot and manage better G's :thumbup: . Here a post of the devs of IL-2 currently working on this exact same aspect https://www.facebook.com/il2sturmovik/posts/2302667223144456?hc_location=ufi

 

Thanks for your time :)

Edited September 13, 2019 by Pâte

[Xilon_x]

already at 4G I have minor problems.

we say that the tolerable limit is about 9 G maximum 12 G.

here in the video I show you the champions of G.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Xilon_x

[Falkaroth]

I would prefer a grey out instead of blurry.

[Pâte]

I would prefer a grey out instead of blurry.

 

Not having experimented myself such G's tbh i have no idea what are the exact effect on the vision other than the red layer and the grey then black out . It was just some ideas to use effect already in place in DCS.

 

But you're right, having the exact reaction of an human body would be even better :thumbup: If the devs of IL release their studies could be pretty interesting

Edited August 31, 2019 by Pâte

[Xilon_x]

if you pull G + the blood gets to your head and the vision is red, if you pull G- the blood flows to the legs and the brain remains without blood the vision turns black.

more technically if you want to analyze the effects G + G- you should analyze on all three axes 3 Dimensional X, Y, Z as Z we mean acceleration deceleration.

 

[Falkaroth]

Not having experimented myself such G's tbh i have no idea what are the exact effect on the vision other than the red layer and the grey then black out . It was just some ideas to use effect already in place in DCS.

 

But you're right, having the exact reaction of an human body would be even better :thumbup: If the devs of IL release their studies could be pretty interesting

 

Have you ever had a circulatory problem?. Have you fainted before?. Me, yes ! It tingles throughout the body and you can hear music. Strange but not bad.

With the next update we will get the option for music on or music off (for better realism).:D

 

Cheers

[vanir]

Seems a rational idea, although this realm of detail doesn't hugely affect me as a solitary player mostly into the aircraft performance generally, I can see how it could add something to multiplayer enjoyment though.

 

I can detect one can of worms in intrinsic variation to which biology is prone to. I think most can guess where I'd be going with that statement, even your mood on the day, how you've been eating the past week and whether you recently got laid might dramatically affect the biology of your aerial combat piloting, but I think as a rule of thumb things would average out to recognized and accepted general military training regimes. So yeah, why not, it's workable in theory.

 

To illustrate intrinsic variation, just a conditional expression the Japanese aces and decorated veterans in WW2 based around Truk were, at one point downed fairly easily due largely to pilot fatigue and severe illness, being essentially unfit to fly and yet one or two aces still proved difficult, impossible really to take down, in one case the same pilot who was bed ridden with malaria but forced into flight operations and ranged to the limit of the zero's fuel capacity for several hours, fought and won, then returned as most others didn't. In a computer simulation that pilot would never survive, because he must observe the one rule for all and the average is an unsurvivable mission under those piloting conditions, especially against fresh, fit americans operating at short range and complaining about no ice in the cooler at the base.

And you could go into anecdotes about WSO's trying to wake the pilot up after a 12G pull. Maybe it was his aftershave.

Edited September 2, 2019 by vanir

[Kid18120]

if you pull G + the blood gets to your head and the vision is red, if you pull G- the blood flows to the legs and the brain remains without blood the vision turns black.

more technically if you want to analyze the effects G + G- you should analyze on all three axes 3 Dimensional X, Y, Z as Z we mean acceleration deceleration.

 

Actually it's the other way around.

G+ >>> blood flows from the head to the legs (i.e. pulling on the stick)

G- >>> blood flows from the legs to the head (i.e. pushing on the stick)

Edited September 2, 2019 by Kid18120
Typos

[skywalker22]

Actually it's the other way around.

G+ >>> blood flows from the head to the legs (i.e. pulling on the stick)

G- >>> blood flows from the legs to the head (i.e. pushing on the stick)

 

Exactly.

Positive and negative G's are relative to the pilot, when we think of an airplane. ... Positive G's would make you heavier, pushing you harder into your seat. Negative G's go past weightless and would be pulling you out of your seat. When an aircraft is upside down the pilot is hanging from his seat belt.

[Nodak]

You can simulate G tolerance, but your never going to simulate fatigue. Fatigue is what causes you to make mistakes and lose SA. How do you program that?

[Xilon_x]

the platform in question is the MOTION ATFS-400 simulates all the movement axes of an aircraft and also simulates the force-g.

 

 

 

this is an example of how a pilot during the aerial combat suffers stress and fatigue with the forces g. in DCS the pilots have no stress can make tight turns with an F-18 for an infinite time and with a completely clear view ....... there is no black view and there is no red view ....

In reality, if a driver pulls 9g in a tight turn it would not last even one minute to maintain those conditions.

 

[Xilon_x]

in dcs it would be enough to create 3 parameters for the pilot.

-heart rate limit.

-G resistance limit

-limit fatigue based on the flight time of the mission (eg. stamina).

and to ensure that each pilot has individual parameters depending on the total hours and the number of total kills.

acrobatic pilots would have other types of features.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Xilon_x

[BitMaster]

That would make it much more realistic and end this endless turning in circles in Dogfights and general ACM.

 

It could be reset after each flight, but during 1 flight, you should not be able to pull and pull and pull and pull and pull again. This is arcade like but unfortunately the case in DCS as of now.

 

Great idea, wear them out, those Pilots ;)

 

There could be a small bar visible ( or not, as one likes ) that shows you the physical status of your virtual body. I am all for that

[Xilon_x]

 

THE CHAMPION

 

DURING FLY

[Pâte]

You can simulate G tolerance, but your never going to simulate fatigue. Fatigue is what causes you to make mistakes and lose SA. How do you program that?

 

Of course we can simulate fatigue, not all the aspect indeed but, the G tolerance reducing through time & maneuvers it's a part of the fatigue that can be simulated :thumbup:

[Xilon_x]

That would make it much more realistic and end this endless turning in circles in Dogfights and general ACM.

 

It could be reset after each flight, but during 1 flight, you should not be able to pull and pull and pull and pull and pull again. This is arcade like but unfortunately the case in DCS as of now.

 

Great idea, wear them out, those Pilots ;)

 

There could be a small bar visible ( or not, as one likes ) that shows you the physical status of your virtual body. I am all for that

 

 

of course this post does not interest anyone because it would not benefit multiplayer players.

I love reality and I think that human beings have their limits you can't continuously pull 9g for 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 minutes and you can't do dogfight without stress and an unnatural thing. I don't think this game option will never be implemented in dcs.

[shomke]

of course this post does not interest anyone because it would not benefit multiplayer players.

I love reality and I think that human beings have their limits you can't continuously pull 9g for 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 minutes and you can't do dogfight without stress and an unnatural thing. I don't think this game option will never be implemented in dcs.

 

I agree with you, but that's a pity...

[Falkaroth]

I have an idea. it lacks only the necessary script in dcs. What do you need ?.

 

1. A microphone.

2. A lot of air.

3. An excuse.

4. Neighbors with nerves.

 

The idea would be this. At 3-4G in the simulator, you have to start blow into the microphone easily. With increased G-forces (for example 8g!) you have (so as not to faint) to blow more. Until it rings. That could be marketed right?....right ?. :punch:

[Pâte]

I have an idea. it lacks only the necessary script in dcs. What do you need ?.

 

1. A microphone.

2. A lot of air.

3. An excuse.

4. Neighbors with nerves.

 

The idea would be this. At 3-4G in the simulator, you have to start blow into the microphone easily. With increased G-forces (for example 8g!) you have (so as not to faint) to blow more. Until it rings. That could be marketed right?....right ?. :punch:

 

You made my day ! :lol:

[Johnny Dioxin]

Maybe we should have them simulate a fly in the cockpit, buzzing around your face, or itchy nuts?

[Art-J]

The competing WWII combat sim-that-shall-not-be-named is going to implement such a fatigue physics soon. How their take on the subject is going to work remains to be seen, but it certainly will prevent some MP jocks from pulling neverending silly maneuvers without consequences.

 

These who are interested in tech details can search for Developer Diary No. 228 on that sim's official forum.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Then it will end up about as realistic as the rifle sway in Arma.

 

This is something you can't accurately simulate because everyone is different. Different levels of fitness, different levels of tolerance etc etc

 

imo the blackout/redout is sufficient. Such things will only drive people away and make the game overall less popular if there is no option. It's like the heavy breathing - if that wasn't an option - i.e. if we were forced to hear it, I would not be flying DCS World at all because I actually have respiratory problems and hearing that noise makes me start to feel uncomfortable.

[Pâte]

Then it will end up about as realistic as the rifle sway in Arma.

 

This is something you can't accurately simulate because everyone is different. Different levels of fitness, different levels of tolerance etc etc

 

imo the blackout/redout is sufficient. Such things will only drive people away and make the game overall less popular if there is no option. It's like the heavy breathing - if that wasn't an option - i.e. if we were forced to hear it, I would not be flying DCS World at all because I actually have respiratory problems and hearing that noise makes me start to feel uncomfortable.

 

Looks like a nice paradox demonstration going on here.

 

Saying that incorporing pilot fatigue would reduce realism while at the moment the pilot is closer to SuperMan than a human. It's fairly 'easy' to gather datas to calculate an average reaction. Giving a human body capacity in the 'norm'. As said Art-j and as mentionned on the first post another simulator that we shouldn't name is currently working on it.

 

But if you are afraid of the Digital Combat "SIMULATOR" aspect then maybe you are on the wrong paltform. Regarding ED focus on details that make a whole difference such as the new turbulences, this G's detail could be vey well something that they would add.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Pâte

[Art-J]

The implementation in the aforementioned sim will be option-selectable, so again, we'll see what the long-term response of the community is going to be.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Looks like a nice paradox demonstration going on here.

 

Saying that incorporing pilot fatigue would reduce realism while at the moment the pilot is closer to SuperMan than a human. It's fairly 'easy' to gather datas to calculate an average reaction. Giving a human body capacity in the 'norm'. As said Art-j and as mentionned on the first post another simulator that we shouldn't name is currently working on it.

 

But if you are afraid of the Digital Combat "SIMULATOR" aspect then maybe you are on the wrong paltform. Regarding ED focus on details that make a whole difference such as the new turbulences, this G's detail could be vey well something that they would add.

 

 

Very witty - I've been flying sims since 1986, matey so take your snotty attitude elsewhere, please. Oh yes - and flown real RAF aircraft as well, many years ago.

 

Like I said, afaic redout/blackout is sufficient.

 

btw anything done sat at a monitor, under a roof, is about as realistic and authentic as daffy duck - so don't come on the "it's not real because it doesn't have what I think it should" crap.

 

But like I said earlier - where you wanna stop? Fly caught in the cockpit and buzzing around your face? Itchy nuts? Feeling pukey? I mean, it's a simulator - so if you can't have that, well maybe you're on the wrong platform?

 

Here endeth the lesson - goodbye. :smartass: