INS Alignment before engine start and missiles...

[pstavis]

1) I'm a guy used to flying airliners in P3D. For those, you set up all the systems, align the INS and then start the engines and so on.

For the F14 I would like to understand if the INS alignment is only possible AFTER engine start OR you could align the INS then start the engines. For a full INS alignment it feels stupid to run the engines for almost 8 minutes until it's ready.

When I was flying the A-10C, which requires some sort of alignment too, I always let it run for a few minutes and when it was almost ready, I would start the engines and do the other steps.

 

 

Maybe it's the way Jester flow is designed but maybe it could be reworked so we dont have to idle for 8 minutes.

 

 

2) Is there a rule of thumb for the use of missiles? I do get the sidewinder is good for dogfights (as it's not capable of hitting anything more than 5 miles or so away). The phoenix is great for long range shots. But what about the sparrow? Where would I use it?

 

Thanks for any help!

[QuiGon]

1) I'm a guy used to flying airliners in P3D. For those, you set up all the systems, align the INS and then start the engines and so on.

For the F14 I would like to understand if the INS alignment is only possible AFTER engine start OR you could align the INS then start the engines. For a full INS alignment it feels stupid to run the engines for almost 8 minutes until it's ready.

When I was flying the A-10C, which requires some sort of alignment too, I always let it run for a few minutes and when it was almost ready, I would start the engines and do the other steps.

 

 

Maybe it's the way Jester flow is designed but maybe it could be reworked so we dont have to idle for 8 minutes.

Yeah, I always start my alignment with engines off. I pretty much always fly as RIO though (multicrew) and have no idea how Jester handles the alignment, but for the aircraft it's no problem.

 

 

2) Is there a rule of thumb for the use of missiles? I do get the sidewinder is good for dogfights (as it's not capable of hitting anything more than 5 miles or so away). The phoenix is great for long range shots. But what about the sparrow? Where would I use it?

Inbetween ;)

[Ignition]

But what about the sparrow? Where would I use it?

 

 

Obviously depends on a lot of factors, but right now is good below 8nm hot aspect.

It also should be a good close range missile but I think it has some problems and doesn't look to turn very well.

I think its underperforming and having the aim-54 in stt as a fox 1 its useless (almost)

[Home Fries]

The thing with aligning inertials in real life is that you don't want anything that will mess up its calibration during alignment, and you don't want a fluctuation in power while the gyros are spinning up for the same reasons. We would start the APU, then spin up the INS using generator power. We would go to NAV after the 8 minute alignment period, and we wouldn't start engines until then because the physical motion from engine start could cause the INS alignment to dump. Obviously, SINS alignment on the boat is a different story because the platform is moving in three axes.

 

Since we had an APU (and therefore generator power) we didn't need to worry about ground power or fluctuations. The Tomcat doesn't have an APU, so the choices are exclusive ground power, ground power transitioning to engine power during alignment, or waiting for engine start to begin alignment. I don't know if the Tomcat's INS was sensitive to the change of power source during alignment, but it doesn't appear that any issues are modeled in-game.

 

My personal process (I also fly mostly as RIO) is to turn on the WCS and punch in present position once ground power is available, then begin alignment once the right engine is idling. This seems to work well.

[*Aquila*]

About the INS alignment process: according to NAVAIR 01-F14AAP-1 (7-36), it's in the RIO's poststart checklist. IIRC, the engines running and bleed air flow are necessary for the system's cooling to be effective.

Edited October 24, 2019 by *Aquila*

[Home Fries]

About the INS alignment process: according to NAVAIR 01-F14AAP-1 (7-36), it's in the RIO's poststart checklist. IIRC, the engines running and RAM air are necessary for the system's cooling to be effective.

 

There you go, quoting NATOPS on us! :D

 

Good stuff, in all seriousness.

[S. Low]

FYI the F14 uses heatblur's proprietary aim-7 and it's currently bugged (has been since at least August). It has about a 10% success rate while the ED aim-7 (f18. F15, etc) sees a 80-90% success rate.

 

Sparrows are used in the 5-15 nm range. 10 and over for making the bandit defensive, and 5-10 for getting a kill. Though I'm no expert, plenty of more knowledgeable guys on here

[pstavis]

About the INS alignment process: according to NAVAIR 01-F14AAP-1 (7-36), it's in the RIO's poststart checklist. IIRC, the engines running and RAM air are necessary for the system's cooling to be effective.

 

 

I thought there was some manual information requiring running engines. Thanks for the reply m8!

 

 

FYI the F14 uses heatblur's proprietary aim-7 and it's currently bugged (has been since at least August). It has about a 10% success rate while the ED aim-7 (f18. F15, etc) sees a 80-90% success rate.

 

Sparrows are used in the 5-15 nm range. 10 and over for making the bandit defensive, and 5-10 for getting a kill. Though I'm no expert, plenty of more knowledgeable guys on here

 

 

Without directly asking it seems you answered my next question of why my aim-7 never hits anything.

The missile simply follows the targed for some seconds then misses it.

 

 

Thanks for all the replies, never thought so many ppl would help!

[draconus]

Yes, from HB manual (based on NATOPS):

http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/procedures.html#id2

 

 

INS alignment after engine start.

[QuiGon]

Without directly asking it seems you answered my next question of why my aim-7 never hits anything.

The missile simply follows the targed for some seconds then misses it.

With or without you loosing the radar lock on the target?

In my experience the AIM-7 is a pretty reliable missile on the Tomcat as long as you keep the target locked.

[pstavis]

With or without you loosing the radar lock on the target?

In my experience the AIM-7 is a pretty reliable missile on the Tomcat as long as you keep the target locked.

 

 

So I lock the target, fire the missile and keep the lock on. The missile will follow the target but it always misses for a mile or so or even stops tracking. I tried firing at a dumb target but no luck.

Also checked tutorials online for a missing step but no luck yet.

[QuiGon]

So I lock the target, fire the missile and keep the lock on. The missile will follow the target but it always misses for a mile or so or even stops tracking. I tried firing at a dumb target but no luck.

Also checked tutorials online for a missing step but no luck yet.

So just to make sure: You keep the target lock (diamond on the target) all the way untill the missile misses? If so that's really odd, because in my experience the AIM-7 on the Tomcat works quite well, provided that you don't loose the target lock, which can happen quiet easily in PDSTT (which is why you should always fire Sparrows in PSTT).

[*Aquila*]

The Sparrow is faulty. It’s not my opinion but 1) tested fact and 2) acknowledged by Heatblur. Sure, in some conditions, you’ll get kills. But it’s faulty.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253004

[draconus]

So I lock the target, fire the missile and keep the lock on. The missile will follow the target but it always misses for a mile or so or even stops tracking. I tried firing at a dumb target but no luck.

Also checked tutorials online for a missing step but no luck yet.

In P-STT try keeping the target above the horizon and see if it helps.

[QuiGon]

The Sparrow is faulty. It’s not my opinion but 1) tested fact and 2) acknowledged by Heatblur. Sure, in some conditions, you’ll get kills. But it’s faulty.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253004

It's not really faulty, it's just using an outdated model that needs to be updated to current ED standard, but even with the old model the missile hits quite reliable in my experience, provided you launch within parameters.

 

 

In P-STT try keeping the target above the horizon and see if it helps.

If I understood him correctly, he didn't have any problems with keeping the lock (although I'm still sure if that is really the case, hence my question above).

[pstavis]

Here's two examples of what I'm talking about:

 

 

I thought I was firing too far from the bogey, so I tried closer:

 

 

All shots are with a PAL lock, I never lost the lock altough on the second run the enemy went a little left of my flight path.

 

 

It's almost like the first missile will always miss.

[draconus]

If the enemy is running away you have to be way closer to get him with the Sparrow. Your own speed will also help so burn to the max before the shot.

We don't see the whole picture but he was defending - means maneuvering and may also be notching. And he got below the horizon.

[Ignition]

Here's two examples of what I'm talking about:

 

 

I thought I was firing too far from the bogey, so I tried closer:

 

 

All shots are with a PAL lock, I never lost the lock altough on the second run the enemy went a little left of my flight path.

 

 

It's almost like the first missile will always miss.

 

 

There's nothing wrong in those videos.

As the previous poster said, if you shoot a cold enemy you need to be way closer to it.

 

The F-14 Aim 7 its a <10nm on hot aspect.

[QuiGon]

I can only repeat the two comments before: When attacking a cold and maneuvering target you need to be really close, like you have been on your last shot in the second video. The AIM-7 isn't that much faster than a high speed fighter that is running away and if he's maneuvering and getting below the Horizon, the Sparrow might loose the lock entirely because of notching and/or ground clutter. So, nothing wrong there, except that the current Sparrow model used with the F-14 has a slightly subpar performance than the new ED AIM-7. When firing at high altitude against a hot and non-maneuvering target you can achieve hits at distances between 20-30nm even with the current AIM-7.

Edited October 25, 2019 by QuiGon

[draconus]

[pstavis]

And everyday I learn something new :smartass:

Thanks for the help, i'll practice some more with those dumb targets until I can shoot down real bogeys.