Q for both the Mods and the Sr members - Tips on training / Learning progression

[Notso]

Hi all, I'm sure this question has been asked before here (or similar varieties thereof) so I apologize for asking again..... but does anyone have a good roadmap to properly learn and enjoy a particular module to not only get the most of out it enjoyment-wise but also to be able to properly employ the "weapon system" to its full potential?

 

For instance, after initially starting out on the A-10C, I'm not trying to concentrate on the Hornet. The general flying and basic employment doctrine are good to go. A 30DB is a 30DB delivery. A MK-82 is a Mk-82. A crank, notch, skate, drag, etc. maneuver is the same regardless of platform with minor variations. But what I'm struggling with how to put that all together to make it work IN THAT PLATFORM.

 

I've read Chuck's guides, as well as the NATOPS which is very basic and system heavy as expected. The Youtube videos are mostly excellent, but usually address the mechanics of a single system or how to do a specific procedure as a standalone. But I've not seen much out there on how best to fly missions end to end. Of course that's all in the real classified MCM 3-1s, but there are seem to be some stuff out there such as the 476 vFG "DCS-izd" A-10 3-3 TTP manual. Is there anything like that floating around for the Hornet? Or for the Viper yet?

 

But the two real questions I'm asking are:

 

1) How did you go about learning the TTPs (tactics, techniques and procedures) for the platform and how did you go about practicing them?

 

2) How much SP flying did you do (or recommend doing) before dipping your toe into Multi-player? Are there many folks out there that do MP training missions for newbies?

 

I feel like I'm at a point now where I'm starting to hit a steep wall on the learning curve and not making the best use of my limited time in the seat. So any tips or lessons learned would be greatly appreciated. Huge thanks in advance!

[USA_Recon]

I recommend you join a squadron that provides training.

[Notso]

I recommend you join a squadron that provides training.

 

That was hopefully my next step soon. Any ones in particular you would recommend?

[BuzzU]

You mentioned the 476. You can't do better than them.

[QuiGon]

Hmm, I'm struggling a bit with understanding your problem. You understand how the (weapon) systems, you understand how to perform a crank, a notch, etc, but now you want to understand how to fly missions? Well you do that by making use of these thins as needed to fulfill the mission. I'm not sure what exactly you want to know?

 

As for your questions:

1) Well, just as I said: I employed the aircraft systems as the mission situation demands and maneuver accordingly.

2) Hmm, can't remember how much SP flying I did before I went to fly online. When I started flying online (must have been somewhere around 2010) there was only one aircraft available, the A-10C, so the missions flown online were mostly cooperative air to ground missions tailored to the A-10C.

Edited November 19, 2019 by QuiGon

[Notso]

Hmm, I'm struggling a bit with understanding your problem. You understand how the (weapon) systems, you understand how to perform a crank, a notch, etc, but now you want to understand how to fly missions? Well you do that by making use of these thins as needed to fulfill the mission. I'm not sure what exactly you want to know?

 

As for your questions:

1) Well, just as I said: I employed the aircraft systems as the mission situation demands and maneuver accordingly.

2) Hmm, can't remember how much SP flying I did before I went to fly online. When I started flying online (must have been somewhere around 2010) there was only one aircraft available, the A-10C, so the missions flown online were mostly cooperative air to ground missions tailored to the A-10C.

 

Sorry, I was probably not as clear as I could have been. I was trying to say, I understand those things IRL, but applying them to the DCS sim with the constraints of VR cockpit management and specific platform systems that I'm not as familiar with as the actual employment doctrine itself. IOW, how best to apply that doctrine to the specific platform within the simulation constraints.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is how much did you feel like you had to master every aspect of the jet's systems and weapons in DCS while in SP before you went online to dive into MP? Or did many of you go right to MP after a short bit and just made mistakes and learned along the way?

 

Thanks.

[DeltaMike]

There's a lot to unpack there.

 

Doctrine is not platform specific, in fact it's more the other way around. System design is more likely to be based on doctrine. You see that in the radar user interface, for example. Eastern bloc jets are designed based on the assumption that you're always working from BRAA calls, Western bloc jets are designed so you can be your own mini-AWACs if you want. Tactics follow. F14's will be up high blaring radiation and firing from 30 miles out, Flankers will be sneaking through the mountains only turning their radar on at the last minute (if at all).

 

So, in progression --

1. Basic skills, like how to take off and land, how to interact with ATC, when present; and with other players, when not. How to get around the map, etc

2. Basic airmanship. BFM, how to fly a bombing pattern, how to get on and off a carrier

3. A/A and A/G doctrine, which varies based on coalition and the peculiarities of the squad you're flying with

4. Quals -- how to handle your particular aircraft (landing, taking off, navigating)

5. Systems -- how to navigate the user interface in your particular aircraft

 

As for #5, I imagine there are very few people who know *everything* about a given platform, and in the case of something like the F-18 or F-16, it's impossible to know everything because we keep getting extra goodies. Which is cool. People gripe sometimes, "when is it going to be complete." I hope it's never complete, myself.

 

Main thing I'm seeing is, people don't like to practice. Eager to get out there and blow stuff up, and often get really good at it, but they can't get their bird on the ground, they terrorize the pattern in MP, you'd rather prefer they not even try to fly formation. That's why I use the term "Quals." Getting proficient to begin with, and maintaining proficiency, are both important.

[statrekmike]

I have found that the best way to get info on how a specific platform is handled is to find pilot memoirs and hope that the writer included some detail into how they went about their job. This is going to be a hit or miss affair as some memoirs (even very popular ones) don't really say much or get too bogged down in ego related nonsense to really get much out of.

 

The other avenue (and one you probably already know about) is the various declassified military documents that you can find online. There are some pretty good ones out there that will lay out doctrine pretty well (or at least enough for you to fill in some blanks yourself).

 

The big issue here is that you are not likely to find platform specific documents since (as others have already stated) doctrine is the framework that everything gets plugged into. I have always felt that when attempting to make realistic missions in DCS, I should first consider the overall doctrine at play on a operational level and then try to figure out what aircraft would be doing what standardized roles. For example. If I were making a mission where player controlled F-16's and A-10C's are operating, I would try to read up on who would be doing what and stick to that pretty rigidly. This might not seem like it helps answer your employment question but it kinda does. In order to understand how to fully employ a aircraft, you need to understand what it would actually do in real life (and not just on paper or in the fanciful theories of internet aviation enthusiasts). Focus on practical, real-world use and you will get a good idea of how things should be done.

 

As far as multiplayer goes, this is where things might get complicated for you. This may be a unpopular thing to say but many of the larger public servers use scenarios that don't really allow for realistic employment of aircraft and their weapons. This is a side-effect of making dynamic, accessible scenarios that players can jump in and out of at will and generally fly whatever they like. In real life, many missions are carefully pre-planned and those plans are often rigidly adhered to. In larger public server scenarios, this isn't really practical and as such, certain tactics and methods simply won't work due to the structure of the mission and how everyone chooses to play.

 

In more carefully controlled co-op scenarios, this isn't such a large issue as missions can be structured fairly realistically. Still, at that point, you are talking about getting into a isolated group that plays on their own servers and uses their own scenarios.

 

My point isn't to turn you off from online play on public servers. I just want to warn you that some of your time spent working out how to accurately do stuff won't always pay off in spaces like that.

[Notso]

I have found that the best way to get info on how a specific platform is handled is to find pilot memoirs and hope that the writer included some detail into how they went about their job. This is going to be a hit or miss affair as some memoirs (even very popular ones) don't really say much or get too bogged down in ego related nonsense to really get much out of.

 

The other avenue (and one you probably already know about) is the various declassified military documents that you can find online. There are some pretty good ones out there that will lay out doctrine pretty well (or at least enough for you to fill in some blanks yourself).

 

The big issue here is that you are not likely to find platform specific documents since (as others have already stated) doctrine is the framework that everything gets plugged into. I have always felt that when attempting to make realistic missions in DCS, I should first consider the overall doctrine at play on a operational level and then try to figure out what aircraft would be doing what standardized roles. For example. If I were making a mission where player controlled F-16's and A-10C's are operating, I would try to read up on who would be doing what and stick to that pretty rigidly. This might not seem like it helps answer your employment question but it kinda does. In order to understand how to fully employ a aircraft, you need to understand what it would actually do in real life (and not just on paper or in the fanciful theories of internet aviation enthusiasts). Focus on practical, real-world use and you will get a good idea of how things should be done.

 

As far as multiplayer goes, this is where things might get complicated for you. This may be a unpopular thing to say but many of the larger public servers use scenarios that don't really allow for realistic employment of aircraft and their weapons. This is a side-effect of making dynamic, accessible scenarios that players can jump in and out of at will and generally fly whatever they like. In real life, many missions are carefully pre-planned and those plans are often rigidly adhered to. In larger public server scenarios, this isn't really practical and as such, certain tactics and methods simply won't work due to the structure of the mission and how everyone chooses to play.

 

In more carefully controlled co-op scenarios, this isn't such a large issue as missions can be structured fairly realistically. Still, at that point, you are talking about getting into a isolated group that plays on their own servers and uses their own scenarios.

 

My point isn't to turn you off from online play on public servers. I just want to warn you that some of your time spent working out how to accurately do stuff won't always pay off in spaces like that.

 

That's excellent advice re the public servers. I am NOT attracted at all to that sort of free play "anything goes" sort of stuff. It would bug the living crap out of me more than likely. OTOH, the carefully planned and scripted private server spaces would be massively time consuming to do it right, so that becomes obviously quite restrictive on time and the ability to coordinate various players who might have day jobs too.

 

Also, I am probably using the term "doctrine" incorrectly here. TTPs are probably more descriptive. TTPs can be both generic across multiple platforms as well as aircraft specific, even sometimes configuration specific (i.e. Block 30 vs blk 50/52 viper). I have seen electronic copies of F-16 and A-10 UNCLASS 3-3 manuals floating around but nothing similar for the Hornet.

[BlacleyCole]

Carrier strike group is an esquadron that fly multi us naval aircraft or did about a year ago when I was with them. They will fly at least one traing flight a week usually they also take the fac pliots along on multiple squadron missions and most mission check out pilots are able to fly their squadron missions they do both carrier and land based training. As to when to dip your toe in multiplayer flying. I recommend when you understand how to fly the airframe you planning on flying primarily and are to fly the sp missions and do a somewhat good job flying and completing those missions I made the mistake of approaching them to learn basic flight In a huey when I wasn’t able to hover and I was to a beginner for this group and wasn’t able to participate in a positive way. So they ask me to learn before returning in not so many words plus I had a goal for something else in dcs that they thought was a distraction.

 

My plan for returning it to learn the f-16 bit by bit as it is upgraded before returning to a squadron maybe if practical master the huey also. There are servers where some traing is going on and free flight or school yard type groups are formed to either complete a mission against ai forces or I pvp missions I’ve never done those my self. Another thing for me flying most require discord and srs stand-alone radio system or services at a minimum for communications disord for briefings if not mission comms but some use srs that enables your in aircraft rations to do voip when tune to the correct freq. some units require maps other than the default Caucasus map and unit or mission specific mods so you see everything your supposed to see. They also have unit skins so your are recognizable plus the mission target or

Landmark maybe unit specific.

[Notso]

Carrier strike group is an esquadron that fly multi us naval aircraft or did about a year ago when I was with them. They will fly at least one traing flight a week usually they also take the fac pliots along on multiple squadron missions and most mission check out pilots are able to fly their squadron missions they do both carrier and land based training. As to when to dip your toe in multiplayer flying. I recommend when you understand how to fly the airframe you planning on flying primarily and are to fly the sp missions and do a somewhat good job flying and completing those missions I made the mistake of approaching them to learn basic flight In a huey when I wasn’t able to hover and I was to a beginner for this group and wasn’t able to participate in a positive way. So they ask me to learn before returning in not so many words plus I had a goal for something else in dcs that they thought was a distraction.

 

My plan for returning it to learn the f-16 bit by bit as it is upgraded before returning to a squadron maybe if practical master the huey also. There are servers where some traing is going on and free flight or school yard type groups are formed to either complete a mission against ai forces or I pvp missions I’ve never done those my self. Another thing for me flying most require discord and srs stand-alone radio system or services at a minimum for communications disord for briefings if not mission comms but some use srs that enables your in aircraft rations to do voip when tune to the correct freq. some units require maps other than the default Caucasus map and unit or mission specific mods so you see everything your supposed to see. They also have unit skins so your are recognizable plus the mission target or

Landmark maybe unit specific.

 

Good stuff, thanks!