Stealth choppers invisible on radar

[GunSlingerAUS]

Hey folks

 

I'm having issues with the first mission on the Operation Persian Gauntlet F-14 campaign. I take off from the carrier, head to waypoint one, and then can't detect any of the bloody choppers directly in front of my Cat.

 

After watching the Tacview track, I know exactly where these choppers are. I know their height. AWACS also backs this up. So I know exactly what range and height to scan for, which I adjust the closer I get to where I know they're going to be.

 

But I simply cannot detect them at all. I've run the mission several times after looking at the Tacview track, and the helicopters refuse to be detected. My wingman is calling out regular contacts at the same time, which are all invisible to me. Other than the radar scan altitude, I've left Jester's radar settings at default, which I'm guessing is where I've gone wrong.

 

Or does Iran have special Stealth choppers?

[legearre]

Get co-altitude and go PAL or tell Jester to use pulse search

[GunSlingerAUS]

By the way, here's an image of Tacview showing that the choppers are directly in front of me. I wish someone would tell Jester that!

 

https://i.imgur.com/vEBnjzw.png

Edited January 20, 2020 by GunSlingerAUS

[GunSlingerAUS]

Hey legearra, how do I use the Jester command wheel to command him to switch to pulse? Also, PAL only works at around 10nm, correct? I need to engage these suckers much further out, so I have time to deal with their fighter cover.

[BonerCat]

The helis are most probably too slow to be picked up through the pulse doppler filter. You're gonna have to either:

A - Get a human RIO (or jump in the back yourself if SP) and ask him to find them in pulse search

B - Use ACM modes (PAL, PLM, Vertical scans), cause these work in pulse.

 

If escorts are a problem, take them out 1st so nobody is bothering you on your turkey shooting spree

Good luck!

Edited January 20, 2020 by BonerCat

[QuiGon]

Helicopters are most likely slipping through the Doppler Filters, because of their low speed, which means you can't pick them up in Doppler modes. With pulse search it's not much better, as you would have to be at lower altitude than the helo in order to avoid ground clutter.

So yeah, choppers are pretty stealthy for the Tomcat radar. That's not really an issue of Jester.

[jojo]

Hey legearra, how do I use the Jester command wheel to command him to switch to pulse? Also, PAL only works at around 10nm, correct? I need to engage these suckers much further out, so I have time to deal with their fighter cover.

 

PAL is 15Nm :smilewink:

http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#pulse-doppler-mode

[GunSlingerAUS]

PAL is 15Nm :smilewink:

http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#pulse-doppler-mode

 

But I only know to use Pal because I cheated by using TACVIEW after the fact. What would I do without cheating? AWACS can't seem em, I can't see em, and sure as hell can't literally see em!

[QuiGon]

But I only know to use Pal because I cheated by using TACVIEW after the fact. What would I do without cheating? AWACS can't seem em, I can't see em, and sure as hell can't literally see em!

There's actually not much you can do. That's how helos survive on the battlefield ;)

 

Besides using PAL I also like to use the AIM-9 as an improvised IRST device when searching for helos.

[jojo]

There's actually not much you can do. That's how helos survive on the battlefield ;)

 

Besides using PAL I also like to use the AIM-9 as an improvised IRST device when searching for helos.

 

I read multiple times that metallic rotor blades should give some Doppler returns.

 

There is a famous blue on blue incident that happened in Irak in 1994.

2 UH-60 Black Hawks were shot down by 2 F-15C after misidentification.

 

The helicopters were detected by the AWACS and it seems that F-15C got them on radar around 40 (statute) miles.

 

This is probably an ED thing.

[BonerCat]

@jojo your story does make sense, and yes, helicopters rotor blades will go thru tomcat's pulse doppler filter, but you do have to remember that the F-15C has significantly better doppler filter system in it's radar than the F-14A/B. You could test if it's an ED thing with the F-15C, and see if you can pick up helos at 40m.

Edited January 20, 2020 by BonerCat

[near_blind]

@jojo your story does make sense, and yes, helicopters rotor blades will go thru pulse doppler filters, but you do have to remember that the F-15C has significantly better doppler filter system in it's radar than the F-14A/B. You could test if it's an ED thing with the F-15C, and see if you can pick up helos at 40m.

 

It's an ED thing, Doppler returns from the rotors don't exist, the only thing taken into account is the speed of the fuselage.

[Haukka81]

It's an ED thing, Doppler returns from the rotors don't exist, the only thing taken into account is the speed of the fuselage.

 

 

 

This , maybe in future things chance :)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jojo]

@jojo your story does make sense, and yes, helicopters rotor blades will go thru pulse doppler filters, but you do have to remember that the F-15C has significantly better doppler filter system in it's radar than the F-14A/B. You could test if it's an ED thing with the F-15C, and see if you can pick up helos at 40m.

 

I wasn't there so it isn't "my" story.

But I read multiple times about different fighters that Doppler radar do spot rotor blade.

 

And given the diameter and rotation speed, a significant part of the blades will be moving above Doppler speed threshold.

[r4y30n]

This , maybe in future things chance :)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Could write a bug report in the DCS 2.5 forum, that would have the best odds of seeing improvement in the future.

[Banzaiib]

Hey folks

 

I'm having issues with the first mission on the Operation Persian Gauntlet F-14 campaign. I take off from the carrier, head to waypoint one, and then can't detect any of the bloody choppers directly in front of my Cat.

 

After watching the Tacview track, I know exactly where these choppers are. I know their height. AWACS also backs this up. So I know exactly what range and height to scan for, which I adjust the closer I get to where I know they're going to be.

 

But I simply cannot detect them at all. I've run the mission several times after looking at the Tacview track, and the helicopters refuse to be detected. My wingman is calling out regular contacts at the same time, which are all invisible to me. Other than the radar scan altitude, I've left Jester's radar settings at default, which I'm guessing is where I've gone wrong.

 

Or does Iran have special Stealth choppers?

 

Flip the MLC to off... they'll show up then. You'll get some strange returns on the TID, because you're essentially turning off the notch / ground clutter filter... but the choppers will show up.

 

Anything that moves slower than 100 kts in relation to the ground will get filtered out by the AWG-9's MLC filter... turning it off will help... but you'll also pay a penalty.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Banzaiib

[GunSlingerAUS]

Flip the MLC to off... they'll show up then. You'll get some strange returns on the TID, because you're essentially turning off the notch / ground clutter filter... but the choppers will show up.

 

Anything that moves slower than 100 kts in relation to the ground will get filtered out by the AWG-9's MLC filter... turning it off will help... but you'll also pay a penalty.

 

Alas I have no idea how to fly RIO, so guess I'm stuffed? Randomly flipping to PAL doesn't seem plausible either. Oh well, will just have to fudge it. Ahhhh DCS!

[QuiGon]

Alas I have no idea how to fly RIO, so guess I'm stuffed? Randomly flipping to PAL doesn't seem plausible either. Oh well, will just have to fudge it. Ahhhh DCS!

Are you saying that it is DCS' fault that you have no idea how to fly RIO? :huh:

[TLTeo]

Naive question but if your wingman sees the target (I imagine it's part of the AI being simplified/cheating?), can't you just flip your datalink to fighter to fighter, get a rough idea of where the helos are, and use PAL to lock them?

[IronMike]

I read multiple times that metallic rotor blades should give some Doppler returns.

 

There is a famous blue on blue incident that happened in Irak in 1994.

2 UH-60 Black Hawks were shot down by 2 F-15C after misidentification.

 

The helicopters were detected by the AWACS and it seems that F-15C got them on radar around 40 (statute) miles.

 

This is probably an ED thing.

 

 

No, it is not. The radar is modeled very realistically (contrary to common FC3 radar who can pick it up nilly villy, which is unrealistic.)

 

Low and slow flying, terrain masking, etc: is all being used by choppers and other aircraft to "slip through". I'll give you a comparison: The slovene air force flies pilatus, and they are equipped with aim9s. They are slow, they can go low. In a training exercise against a US F-16, the slovenes scored a kill, because the F-16 could not get the pilatus on radar, the slovene pilot VID-ed the F16, pulled up and engaged him.

 

If conditions are favourable, the awg9 can pick up choppers very well, and @QuiGon ground clutter in pulse is not such an issue, you can still make em out, unless you look like straight down on them. PAL or any pilot acquisition mode will lock a chopper always 10/10. And I had them on screen often enough, too, also in TWS using Jester. It all depends on location, own speed, chopper speed etc etc...

 

 

Also, remember how many bars you have, and how little degrees that forms closer in. Such targets are also easily missed by non proper sanitization of the target's surrounding sky. It takes patience to scan a 2° section of the sky for several seconds to get an update on possible tracks, even more if the filter is working against you, and to not miss any of the 2° chunks above and below your targets expected altitude.

Edited January 21, 2020 by IronMike

[GunSlingerAUS]

Are you saying that it is DCS' fault that you have no idea how to fly RIO? :huh:

 

No, I'm saying that I can't occupy the F-14's pilot seat in the way that it was intended. I'm not sure if it's the fault of Heatblur's AI coding, or the DCS engine, but when I said "Aaaah DCS", I was referring to the game as a whole.

 

Sorry, would you prefer if I cloned myself so I can occupy both seats simultaneously, then clone another dozen of me to ensure the DCS code will allow the Tomcat's radar to pick up a flight of three helos flying in tight formation at 1000 feet? I'll get right on it.

Edited January 21, 2020 by GunSlingerAUS

[jojo]

@IronMike:

So would your AWG-9 detect a stationary helicopter in Doppler mode ?

[QuiGon]

@IronMike:

So would your AWG-9 detect a stationary helicopter in Doppler mode ?

No, not ingame. Only if the helo is mving fast.

Edited January 21, 2020 by QuiGon

[GunSlingerAUS]

 

If conditions are favourable, the awg9 can pick up choppers very well, and @QuiGon ground clutter in pulse is not such an issue, you can still make em out, unless you look like straight down on them. PAL or any pilot acquisition mode will lock a chopper always 10/10. And I had them on screen often enough, too, also in TWS using Jester. It all depends on location, own speed, chopper speed etc etc...

 

 

Also, remember how many bars you have (fewer in PAL even), and how little degrees that forms closer in. Such targets are also easily missed by non proper sanitization of the target's surrounding sky. It takes patience to scan a 2° section of the sky for several seconds to get an update on possible tracks, even more if the filter is working against you, and to not miss any of the 2° chunks above and below your targets expected altitude.

 

You sound like a man who knows his radars! What would you suggest to be the best way to detect helicopters, without having to learn the RIO seat in the Tomcat? I've got a mate who is about to start learning the RIO seat this week (funny how a free copy of the Tomcat module as well as a free brand new X52 motivates some people), but in the meantime I'd like to get past the first mission in the Persian campaign.

[IronMike]

You sound like a man who knows his radars! What would you suggest to be the best way to detect helicopters, without having to learn the RIO seat in the Tomcat? I've got a mate who is about to start learning the RIO seat this week (funny how a free copy of the Tomcat module as well as a free brand new X52 motivates some people), but in the meantime I'd like to get past the first mission in the Persian campaign.

 

 

 

 

If the situation is not in favor for TWS sanitization and detection of the target, use PAL. But remember, you "only" have 8 bars in PAL, so you need to sanitize well, it can miss it even on either the lower or upper sweep, so you wanna make sure you sweep the sky properly.

 

How are you being made aware of the choppers? I cant remember anymore. Does it give you a general direction? Ofc you need to know a bit where to look at with PAL.

 

What I do in my missions is that ground troops call in rotary contacts, when they spot them, so you have a limited search area.

 

Else I go low, switch to backseat, use Pulse, and that is that. There is 2 Mi8s I train with in the free flight caucasus mission, about 40nm out on start. If you increase your speed and help with closure rate, you can sometimes detect them also in TWS (you need to tell Jester where to scan ofc). You can try that, too.

Edited January 21, 2020 by IronMike