Vikhr vs. Hellfire

[Yellonet]

No, what I mean is that the Vikhr flies with an AoA - ie. nose pointed up, in order to maintain altitude. Therefore, no 90 deg impact angle.

Ah, I didn't know that.

 

On the other hand, doesn't angle of the armor make less difference with shaped charge "jets" as opposed to kinetic penetrators?

[Avimimus]

The last I checked the Vikhr was about 1/5th the price of a hellfire. So even a poor country can fire multiple missiles (increasing PK and variety of targets). It is also hard to spoof and relatively fast.

[GGTharos]

Yellonet: Actually, it makes a huge difference for HEAT. HEAT projectiles are all about exploding at the right distance and angle from the armor. Kinetic rounds are affected also, but not necessarily as badly - there are, however, other ways to affect them, such as armor that will shatter them etc.

 

Avinimus: You might not be able to spoof the missile but this doesn't matter much - you can spoof the shkval instead, using the same methods.

[Sundowner.pl]

But it gives a lot of time for tank automated defenses to put a smoke/aerosol screen. Missile will miss, if launching-guiding platform will have to make a rapid move. The platform is always in LOS with the target - so it is detectable, and can be shot at in whole missile flight period of time. Etc Etc.

 

That all summed up together make th Vikhr a good missile, only on quick and short strikes against targets without good defenses.

[Yellonet]

How sensitive is a laser warning system? Will it for example pick up a laser beam that is 5 meters to the side of the vehicle?

 

What I'm trying to figure out is if a Vikhr fired at the ground next to a tank and then in the final few seconds is steered toward the tank would be a viable tactic to give the target less time to react to the incoming missile.

[GGTharos]

Reacting to such weapons is a matter of seeing them coming. Also, last seconds corrections lower Pk. In any case, this is 'you see it, therefore you dodge' territory. I don't think there's enough warning time against a tank gun to really justify an LWR on a tank, and tanks is what it would be most worried about - helis would have to be spotted visually before or during their missile fire to be dealt with as well.

[Yellonet]

Reacting to such weapons is a matter of seeing them coming. Also, last seconds corrections lower Pk. In any case, this is 'you see it, therefore you dodge' territory. I don't think there's enough warning time against a tank gun to really justify an LWR on a tank, and tanks is what it would be most worried about - helis would have to be spotted visually before or during their missile fire to be dealt with as well.

The tanks don't have LWRs? :noexpression:

[Sundowner.pl]

How sensitive is a laser warning system? Will it for example pick up a laser beam that is 5 meters to the side of the vehicle?

 

What I'm trying to figure out is if a Vikhr fired at the ground next to a tank and then in the final few seconds is steered toward the tank would be a viable tactic to give the target less time to react to the incoming missile.

Actually this might help, but remember you're in a helicopter... alone. You have to maintain hover probably in a tight spot with gusts of wind, watching for threats (no RWR or automated countermeasures). And you just don't have that much flexibility to manually control the sight. That's why Shkval is so automated, one person couldn't do all of this at once.

[Sundowner.pl]

The tanks don't have LWRs? :noexpression:

Well Polish tanks have 'Obra' self defense system, that incorporates LWRs, so is the American AN/AAR-1, German LWS-300, Israeli LWS-2, Russian Shtora-1, etc. etc. etc. :smilewink:

[Groove]

The tanks don't have LWRs? :noexpression:

 

Tanks have of course LWR`s. It can safe your life sitting in this tin box.

[GGTharos]

Actually no, they don't ... at least I haven't yet spotted optics for detection of laser systems targetting the tank. Furthermore, they add to maintenance time, and they'll be the first thing to go when an arty shell explodes nearby or the tank gets machine gunned or otherwise shrapneled (which is exactly the kind of stuff a tank is supposed to protect against). Therefore, there's no reason to mount on a tank a system that cannot truly be relied on. If you notice, all tank optics are set inside armored housings as much as possible.

 

Also, glass tends to stop a lot of IR frequencies that the lasers operate at, therefore making mounting sensors behind the vision blocks a little difficult.

 

Edit: My information might be somewhat out-dated, but I'm pretty certain I haven't heard of a tank mounting an LWR yet - only in games.

[arneh]

Actually no, they don't ... at least I haven't yet spotted optics for detection of laser systems targetting the tank.

 

From wikipedia:

 

Shtora (Russian: Штора, ‘curtain’) is a Russian electro-optical active protection suite for tanks, designed to disrupt the laser target designation and rangefinders of incoming anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs).

 

The system is mounted on the Russian T-80 and T-90 series tanks, the Ukrainian T-84, and the Serbian M-84AB1.

[GGTharos]

That isn't an LWR. It's a jammer. ;) And it isn't likely mounted on a whole lot of tanks right now, either.

[arneh]

That isn't an LWR. It's a jammer. ;)

 

Read the article.

 

"The Shtora-1 system comprises four key components,[...] a laser warning system with precision and coarse heads"

[Sundowner.pl]

GGTharos, first - no glass is used in those sensors, the "windows" are made from artificially grown crystals. Second, those windows are mostly reaaaaally small, take a look at that picture representing PT-91 'Twardy' tank:

 

 

Note those two vertical cylinders mounted in front of the turret - those are LWRs of 'Obra' self defense system.

[Force_Feedback]

Keep in mind that the Vikhr was designed as a cheap and reliable missile (They went for a portable ATGM-approach), the high speed was its advantage over other heli launched ATGMs. This approach is continued with the modular HERMES system, with varying booster sections making it capable of engaging targets at either 12, 32 or 100km, the guidance is different too, I don't exactly remember the specifics, but it's the follow-up for the Vikhr (maybe transcripted as Germes, dunno)

The cheapo-approach with the Vikhr was done because most targets on the battlefield are not tanks, but infrantry fighting vehicles and other lower value machinery, it would make no sense to engage something with an expensive missile.

Also remember that the Vikhr's laser beam is low powered, and not in the same class as a designator or rangefinder, therefor it might not trip the detection threshold of LWRs (but that may be just a rumor).

[159th_Viper]

Also remember that the Vikhr's laser beam is low powered, and not in the same class as a designator or rangefinder, therefor it might not trip the detection threshold of LWRs (but that may be just a rumor).

 

Not a Rumour at all - Quite True: Gotta love the Vikhr :)

 

"Laser beam-riding missiles are particularly hard to detect because they use low power lasers. Most laser warning systems produced so far can not detect laser beam-riding missiles because of their weak emissions which have signals less than 1% of laser range finder power . They are even harder to defeat because current counter-measures are not designed to work against this threat."

 

Link

[Yellonet]

Tanks have of course LWR`s. It can safe your life sitting in this tin box.

Yeah I thought so... hence my suggestion to aim the missile beside the tank and only towards the end of the flight path slew the targeting box over to the tank.

[Yellonet]

Not a Rumour at all - Quite True: Gotta love the Vikhr :)

 

"Laser beam-riding missiles are particularly hard to detect because they use low power lasers. Most laser warning systems produced so far can not detect laser beam-riding missiles because of their weak emissions which have signals less than 1% of laser range finder power . They are even harder to defeat because current counter-measures are not designed to work against this threat."

 

Link

Nice... then you can just aim away without risking to be detected by LWRs anyway :)

[GGTharos]

I'm fairly certain that LWRs on tanks are a very recent, and not really yet fielded development - regardless - yes, the laser designation for the Vikhr CAN trip the LWR; all you need to know is that there's coherent light being pointed at you for more than X amount of time. Lastly, the Ka-50 /does/ use a laser rangefinder ... so the whole 'no tripping warning receivers' thing is probably not entirely correct.

[Yellonet]

I'm fairly certain that LWRs on tanks are a very recent, and not really yet fielded development - regardless - yes, the laser designation for the Vikhr CAN trip the LWR; all you need to know is that there's coherent light being pointed at you for more than X amount of time. Lastly, the Ka-50 /does/ use a laser rangefinder ... so the whole 'no tripping warning receivers' thing is probably not entirely correct.

Argh... this discussion is turning around with every post it seems :lol:

[159th_Viper]

Nice... then you can just aim away without risking to be detected by LWRs anyway :)

 

Precisely -and therein lies their cheap yet ruthless effeciency: Those Devil Darts will send you straight to Hell without you knowing what hit you :D

[GGTharos]

^^^

Not likely. If you're pointing within a few meters of the tank, the LWR will pick it up. If you're pointing farther, the Vikhr may or may not be able to cope with the sudden re-targeting. In addition to this, you have to fly the chopper and look out for that buddy's tank pointing its gun at you ...

[159th_Viper]

yes, the laser designation for the Vikhr CAN trip the LWR;

 

Any link to contradict the earlier submission - in order to satisfy my quest for knowledge :)

[GGTharos]

Nope, just a working knowledge of similar systems :)

Because of the signal being so low, the probability of tripping the LWR might be lower; however, your opponent can simply reprogram the device to filter things differently, in order to detect this signal more reliably. And again ... the Black Shark does use a laser rangefinder ;)