Question about the in-game Vikhr

[Flanker15]

Do you think that AAM payloads (and other payloads) and a RWR could be tacked on with mods?

[GGTharos]

No, I don't.

[JimMack]

Yep. And it probably won't matter wether you're armed with R-60's or R-73's or not, because if that fixed wing pilot has half a brain, you'll at least never get the opportunity to train your weapons on him, or at most you'll never see what hit you. That's against say, an A-10.

If your opponent is an actual fighter with AAMs and radar he'll shoot you down before you ever know what happened.

 

The point is ... stop thinking about fighting planes. Winning that fight would be pure luck and coincidence. If there's fighters around HIDE and let them be on their way, then do your stuff. Fighting planes is not your job, and should be the last thing on your mind. You evade them instead.

 

To reinforce the comment made by GGTharos. On UK TV there was a program concerning the training of helo crews. Practice exercise was Merlin v Hawk. SOP for the Merlin was to hide in a valley, and if necessary land and evacuate! Similar situations happened in the Falklands - Wessex avoiding Pucara.

[Geier]

That is another matter altogether - as you know, LO had no troops ... and I think it will be a while longer before we see payloads like this properly simulated, probably not in BS - but perhaps the A-10 will be a start for such things since it will be big on modeling CBUs and iron bombs.

I suppose this should be made not only on conditions of troops realisation;) When S8 has h-e warhead in real life why it's so difficult to see it in DCS, especially when we have specific type of shock wave DM without any splinter effect(

[Flanker15]

Ok so now that I've determined that there will be no AAM for the Ka-50, I'm curious about the effect a Vikhr proxy explosion has on a helicopter? It's a dual HEAT warhead so how much damage could one detonating next to a chopper do (damage rotor, knock a bit off or total disintegration) and does it have special fragmentation bits? Also in the game since there is no fragmentation modeling how do proxy triggers work in the engine, do they just have an area of blast effect?

[GGTharos]

A proximity hit will more than likely take the helicopter out; an un-moving helicopter is likely to take a direct hit ... although I don't think it would disintegrate, I imagine the fuselage may well break from the tail or something - who knows.

In the game, prox fuzes simply cause damage based on a blast effect model I think, yes. (Actually even the frag model would be a 'blast effect' model, but the damage would be applied differently, and at different range, I think)

 

Edit: If you are asking about effectiveness, it can damage an A-10 (probably destroy with a direct hit) but not being a true AAM, it's best to let the fixed-wing aircrafts pass...

[Geier]

In the game, prox fuzes simply cause damage based on a blast effect model I think, yes. (Actually even the frag model would be a 'blast effect' model, but the damage would be applied differently, and at different range, I think)

agree but it seems that there will be no changes(. It means that in DCS will be the same situation we have now in LO - still easier to kill Stinger by your gun rather than by S8:(

[GGTharos]

You might not see the stinger at all. ;)

But yeah, I know what you mean. I'm certain this will be addressed at some point.

[mvsgas]

Why does so many people want to dog fight (heli vs heli) in BS? Don't meant to offend nobody or get anybody mad but I just don't understand why would I look for other helicopter to fight with when I have so many other treats to worry about. I'm just saying, when I fly the SU-25/25T/A-10 I don't look for other aircraft to fight with, I look for ground target to destroy and try my best to avoid other aircraft. Keep in mind I fail 90% of the time and get shoot down any way. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

[Eagle Driver]

Thing is, even if you're not looking for them, when they pop up an air target can be far more deadly than a ground-based one. Tanks can't chase you down.

[Yellonet]

Thing is, even if you're not looking for them, when they pop up an air target can be far more deadly than a ground-based one. Tanks can't chase you down.

True, you want to be able to defend yourself acceptably well if you get jumped by another helo or get into a position where you can surprise an enemy helo. As the Vikhr does have a proximity fuse of course we want it modeled in order to use it both against aircraft and soft area targets which is possible due to the fact that the missile has a fragmentation belt.

[mvsgas]

I'm just wandering how likely are we to realize you are being attack in a helicopter with no RWR, and poor rear visibility unless the pilot from enemy Helicopter/airplane happens to jump in front of you. Especially while attacking enemy vehicle or personal. Just wandering how hard it is to keep a high SA and fly low to the ground and control your systems to engage the targets? I'm not a pilot but you keep hearing how hard it is to fly a helicopter and how much harder it is to control the weapon systems as well. Would it be better to try to run and hide than try to switch you system to a2a and engage? I read before in one of this forums about heli vs heli combat, but how common would it be? I have never heard of a helicopter ace, not that i have look for one. Sorry this turn out to be longer that I wanted , just find the subject interesting and read, or have heard very little about it. I just realize I'm kind of de-realign this tread, sorry.

[EvilBivol-1]

Ideally, you shouldn't even be anywhere near enemy fighters or SAMs, unless your mission is specifically organized for their destruction, in which case you shouldn't be alone, either. Things happen of course and if you do run into a fighter that is commited to taking you down, then your options are pretty limited - assuming you are even aware of the threat. If it's a Russian fighter, you might get a laser warning when he is ranging you, but in general, your best bet will probably be to stay as low as possible and try to drag him toward friendlies.

 

However, I think something should be said for the helicopter's inherent defenses, especially in the kind of terrain featured in DCS. Don't get me wrong, as I said above, a lone chopper against a committed fighter is a bad deal, but choppers tend to fly low and (relatively) slow, ducking from ridgeline to ridgeline, making it difficult to maintain radar contact. Also, no fighter likes to drag itself to low altitude. Add in problems with positive ID, multiple contacts and potential missile guidence problems against very low altitude aircraft and it doesn't look quite as hopeless.

 

ED is trying to model some of these difficulties in Black Shark, so with proper mission planning and a watchful eye, the threat can be minimized, though certainly not eliminated.

[Yellonet]

Ideally, you shouldn't even be anywhere near enemy fighters or SAMs, unless your mission is specifically organized for their destruction, in which case you shouldn't be alone, either. Things happen of course and if you do run into a fighter that is commited to taking you down, then your options are pretty limited - assuming you are even aware of the threat. If it's a Russian fighter, you might get a laser warning when he is ranging you, but in general, your best bet will probably be to stay as low as possible and try to drag him toward friendlies.

 

However, I think something should be said for the helicopter's inherent defenses, especially in the kind of terrain featured in DCS. Don't get me wrong, as I said above, a lone chopper against a committed fighter is a bad deal, but choppers tend to fly low and (relatively) slow, ducking from ridgeline to ridgeline, making it difficult to maintain radar contact. Also, no fighter likes to drag itself to low altitude. Add in problems with positive ID, multiple contacts and potential missile guidence problems against very low altitude aircraft and it doesn't look quite as hopeless.

 

ED is trying to model some of these difficulties in Black Shark, so with proper mission planning and a watchful eye, the threat can be minimized, though certainly not eliminated.

Nice EB, giving us some hope :D

As I understand it, the a2a capability of the Ka-50 would likely only be used in a semi defensive manner, if you happen to meet an enemy transport/attack helo in the field or maybe a low flying transport plane or such, it's not like you'd go out actively hunting air targets, but if the opportunity presents itself it's nice to have some options ;)

[Eagle Driver]

What if it's not a dedicated fighter on CAP or similar? I'm imagining that you're taking out targets, and an A-10 or something is doing thier commute to the Russian lines, and starts to see the Yanks blowing up around him, he's going to be bringing heaven and ---- down upon you real quick. This doesn't seem like an unlikely scenario, particularly with the Hawg which is, as you all know, designed to support and protect the very creatures you're going to be Vikhring. If I knew that the A-10A was flyable, and I will, then I'd really want some R-73's to outrange his Sidewinders. Honestly, I would be willing to give up the rockets in favor of some Archer action, I never liked rockets that much and I think the gun would do fine in that role for me. I'm not saying that you should model it, but I think the "little helo-helo combat" think is hokus-pokus, because there hasn't really been two major helo-operating powers going at it (unless Iraq was big on choppers, although I think we all know what lovely jet [strike eagle] took them all out on the ground.)

[Flanker15]

Why do I want to fight helicopters in the Ka-50? Well for one reason it's cool and something I haven't done in a simulator of this caliber.

Also I found a vid on tube of the effects of a Vikhr on a plane and tank:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z03y04imhQg

[arneh]

there hasn't really been two major helo-operating powers going at it (unless Iraq was big on choppers, although I think we all know what lovely jet [strike eagle] took them all out on the ground.)

 

Iraq were big on helicopters, but during the Iran-Iraq war. It's the only time there has been real helicopter vs helicopter combat (Iraqi Hinds vs Iranian Cobras). Think both side ended up with losing about 10 helicopters in air-air.

 

So it's not like there's never been helicopter vs helicopter combat.

[Yellonet]

Iraq were big on helicopters, but during the Iran-Iraq war. It's the only time there has been real helicopter vs helicopter combat (Iraqi Hinds vs Iranian Cobras). Think both side ended up with losing about 10 helicopters in air-air.

 

So it's not like there's never been helicopter vs helicopter combat.

Exactly, in a large conflict between similarily equipped forces this thing would most likely occur even though neither side is actively seeking it.

[GGTharos]

As I recall, that flight pattern presented zero problems to a pair of F-15's and their missiles when they shot down two Black Hawks ... ID was indeed a problem, but the target's flight altitude, never ... and maintaining track from 40nm away (that is how far out they were detected) was also never an issue from 30000' up.

It was two shots, two kills ... one AMRAAM, one Sidewinder. An unfortunate incident but it pretty much shows us that helis has very little to zero defense against a modern air to air fighter if they don't take care to not show up on the radar to begin with - and the only way to do that is to basically put something between themselves and those fighters.

Perhaps flying low would work reliably against old R-27's or something, but any difficulty that modern kit might have attacking a low flying heli would be more of a nod to playability than realism ... rather, trading realism for some form of playability ... in which case, I would reccomend not making that trade at all, and simply avoiding having modern enemy fighters roaming the skies anywhere near a Ka-50.

 

However, I think something should be said for the helicopter's inherent defenses, especially in the kind of terrain featured in DCS. Don't get me wrong, as I said above, a lone chopper against a committed fighter is a bad deal, but choppers tend to fly low and (relatively) slow, ducking from ridgeline to ridgeline, making it difficult to maintain radar contact. Also, no fighter likes to drag itself to low altitude. Add in problems with positive ID, multiple contacts and potential missile guidence problems against very low altitude aircraft and it doesn't look quite as hopeless.

 

ED is trying to model some of these difficulties in Black Shark, so with proper mission planning and a watchful eye, the threat can be minimized, though certainly not eliminated.

[GGTharos]

What if it's not a dedicated fighter on CAP or similar? I'm imagining that you're taking out targets, and an A-10 or something is doing thier commute to the Russian lines, and starts to see the Yanks blowing up around him, he's going to be bringing heaven and ---- down upon you real quick. This doesn't seem like an unlikely scenario, particularly with the Hawg which is, as you all know, designed to support and protect the very creatures you're going to be Vikhring.

 

Yup...and it was tested using a very early version of BS ... the player flying the Ka-50 and the oen flying the A-10 never saw each other ... but once the Ka-50 opened fire, the A-10 dove in from 14000' and rained down doom.

The Ka-50 never knew what hit it, and even though the first attack was done poorly, the second pass found the Ka-50 still quite unable to defend itself in any way shape or form - in fact, the Ka-50 player NEVER SAW the boom and zooming A-10 - the onyl indication that he was being attacked was the rain of DU around him.

 

If I knew that the A-10A was flyable, and I will, then I'd really want some R-73's to outrange his Sidewinders.

R-73's don't outrange sidewinders. This misconception will hopefuly be corrected very soon ... and ESPECIALLY, R-73's tossed off a slow heli will NOT outrange a missile launched from an aircraft at higher altitude, with more energy. Not to mention those R73's, IIRC, suck up your Vikhr pylons, and you'll almost never get the opportunity to use them, if you read the above. THIS is why helis do not carry AAMs.

[Yellonet]

As I recall, that flight pattern presented zero problems to a pair of F-15's and their missiles when they shot down two Black Hawks ...

How high were they flying and what was the general topography like?

[Flanker15]

Thinking about ways to defend yourself against fighters I was wondering if you can call in fighter support in the event enemy planes appear? I'm sure that you could do it in LongBow2 where it was useful since your stingers were rather ineffective against planes.

[159th_Viper]

.......I was wondering if you can call in fighter support in the event enemy planes appear?

 

The first Hint that you'll get of Fighters in the Vicinity is "Map View" ;)

 

And then it's too late as you'll be on your way to be measured up for a Harp and to enjoy a cold one with 'ol Saint Pete no doubt......

[GGTharos]

Mountainous terrain - I doubt it was NOE flight, but it was characterized as 'very low' so I would say 200' or under ... which makes little difference to the missile at this point wether you're 200' higher or lower.

 

Read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

 

But more importantly, check oout the references. Apparently one of the helis dove to evade the attack.

 

How high were they flying and what was the general topography like?

[Geier]

You might not see the stinger at all. ;)

But yeah, I know what you mean. I'm certain this will be addressed at some point.

 

Thx for comprehension, GG:thumbup: