Questions about FTT

[LastRifleRound]

Very excited to see FTT coming to the Hornet. Some questions about this mode:

 

1. Does FTT need to resolve an actual target to initiate, kind of like STT in air to air? I.e., if you attempt FTT on open ground nothing will happen, but if you do it on a building or vehicle, if you are close enough, the beam can resolve a discernible return from background and enter FTT.

 

2. Does this include the 'scoop-up' mode pilots talk about, where they would basically have an ACM like mode that could lock ground targets under a boresight symbol in the hud for accurate bomb deliveries. Read several accounts from pilots who loved this feature.

 

There's plenty of documentation out there for EXP/DBS/SAR, but not much on just how FTT works.

[VFA41_Lion]

I guess it depends on the engine the sim runs, but the radar will probably need to lock either a static object or non-moving vehicle, or a map object to enter FTT

[oldcrusty]

2. Does this include the 'scoop-up' mode pilots talk about, where they would basically have an ACM like mode that could lock ground targets under a boresight symbol in the hud for accurate bomb deliveries. Read several accounts from pilots who loved this feature.

 

Auto acquisition is part of AGR mode which if modeled properly will integrate with other systems including FLIR, LST...

[Bunny Clark]

Based on my experience in other sims with ground mapping radar, FTT just uses the radar map to designate a point on the ground. The radar does not care what kind of return in under the cursor, a bit like designating a location with the TPOD.

[Santi871]

FTT can't discern which one is the actual desired return within the beam, so what will likely happen is that it will lock on the strongest return. Even if you would be able to tell returns apart in an expanded mode with more detail. It's one of its weakenesses. Ultimately whether that's modeled in DCS is up to ED though.

[LastRifleRound]

FTT can't discern which one is the actual desired return within the beam, so what will likely happen is that it will lock on the strongest return. Even if you would be able to tell returns apart in an expanded mode with more detail. It's one of its weakenesses. Ultimately whether that's modeled in DCS is up to ED though.

 

Right, I think it has to resolve a distinct return. Basically, I believe the same logic that would allow the AGR mode to auto acquire a ground target is what would be used for FTT. You command FTT on the map, the radar focuses there and sees if it can make out an object of contrast. If it can, FTT is entered.

 

I believe this doesn't work if commanded to FTT on open ground, because there isn't any contrast there, or insufficient contrast to actually "track" something.

 

I guess I'm just asking ED how in-depth is the simulation of FTT going to be. Most other sims get it wrong as mentioned above. You just pick a spot and 'poof' you have FTT on whatever spot you picked from the map.

[Santi871]

Right, I think it has to resolve a distinct return. Basically, I believe the same logic that would allow the AGR mode to auto acquire a ground target is what would be used for FTT. You command FTT on the map, the radar focuses there and sees if it can make out an object of contrast. If it can, FTT is entered.

 

I believe this doesn't work if commanded to FTT on open ground, because there isn't any contrast there, or insufficient contrast to actually "track" something.

 

I guess I'm just asking ED how in-depth is the simulation of FTT going to be. Most other sims get it wrong as mentioned above. You just pick a spot and 'poof' you have FTT on whatever spot you picked from the map.

 

It doesn't need contrast. It will just track the strongest return. If the strongest return is a patch of sand then that's that. But if you're trying to track a patch of sand that's next to a tank, it will probably end up tracking the tank and it won't inform you of that until you have a way to visually check what it's tracking.

 

 

Consider that the 3 degree or so wide beam is about a kilometer wide at 15 miles or so. Rough numbers, but you can see the problem.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Santi871

[ebabil]

Since I haven't played any sim contains ag radar, my knowledge is almost nonexistent.

Can we track via tgp what we are tracking with ground radar at the same time on the other mfd?

[LastRifleRound]

It doesn't need contrast. It will just track the strongest return. If the strongest return is a patch of sand then that's that. But if you're trying to track a patch of sand that's next to a tank, it will probably end up tracking the tank and it won't inform you of that until you have a way to visually check what it's tracking.

 

 

Consider that the 3 degree or so wide beam is about a kilometer wide at 15 miles or so. Rough numbers, but you can see the problem.

 

You are agreeing with me. The strongest return over a run is contrast. It is the strongest return as compared to other returns. The EO/IR spectrum a TGP uses to track is using the same concept in a different part of the EMS.

 

If there is no consistently strongest return I think the FTT fails.

[Santi871]

You are agreeing with me. The strongest return over a run is contrast. It is the strongest return as compared to other returns. The EO/IR spectrum a TGP uses to track is using the same concept in a different part of the EMS.

 

If there is no consistently strongest return I think the FTT fails.

 

I'm not agreeing with you, maybe my wording is confusing. FTT doesn't need a strongest return or a contrasting return at least as far as I know. However, if there's a stronger return in the FTT beam width, it's possible and likely that the tracking will swap to that instead.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Santi871

[Notso]

Sorry for the stupid Q, but is FTT here the same thing as AGR in the Hornet? Typically, AGR as I understand it is just a ranging mode only and does not "track" anything. It is just a mode that has the radar fire down the LOS of something such as the CCIP pipper, gun or rocket pipper, the AUTO designation point, or along the LOS of the TGP if the laser is not firing instead. Therefore nothing is being tracked, but rather you are getting ranging to wherever the AGR spot is pointed at the ground.

 

If I see the term FTT, it implies that something on the ground is being tracked in 3 dimensions much in the same way that an aircraft in flight is being tracked while in STT. That's an entirely different concept than just a ranging mode.

[Santi871]

Sorry for the stupid Q, but is FTT here the same thing as AGR in the Hornet? Typically, AGR as I understand it is just a ranging mode only and does not "track" anything. It is just a mode that has the radar fire down the LOS of something such as the CCIP pipper, gun or rocket pipper, the AUTO designation point, or along the LOS of the TGP if the laser is not firing instead. Therefore nothing is being tracked, but rather you are getting ranging to wherever the AGR spot is pointed at the ground.

 

If I see the term FTT, it implies that something on the ground is being tracked in 3 dimensions much in the same way that an aircraft in flight is being tracked while in STT. That's an entirely different concept than just a ranging mode.

 

Yup you are correct, AGR is a different mode from FTT. You cannot directly command the radar to AGR, it's done automatically on certain conditions.

[Notso]

Yup you are correct, AGR is a different mode from FTT. You cannot directly command the radar to AGR, it's done automatically on certain conditions.

 

Good, that's what I thought re AGR. Then what does FTT do? What does the radar tracking a fixed spot on the ground do for you?

[Santi871]

Good, that's what I thought re AGR. Then what does FTT do? What does the radar tracking a fixed spot on the ground do for you?

 

Just what it says on the tin. It drives the designation by tracking a fixed spot on the ground.

[LastRifleRound]

Just what it says on the tin. It drives the designation by tracking a fixed spot on the ground.

 

From the VRS page:

 

"10.2.1 Acquisition Phase

Regardless of the method used to command acquisition (see above), the Radar must actually find something at the commanded position before it can enter Track. This phase of looking for a target is known as the Acquisition Mode. When in acquisition, the Radar will blank all options from the format and display the Designation crosshairs frozen at the point of designation. The Radar will continue to try to find a suitable track for up to 5 seconds before aborting acquisition and returning to search. If acquisition is successful, the Radar will enter Track. Tracking in MAP, EXP1, EXP2, or EXP3 is known as Fixed Target Track (FTT), and tracking in GMT or SEA is known as Ground Moving Target Track (GMTT). Both of these modes look identical and are only distinguished by internal processing.

 

10.2.2 Tracking Phase

After acquisition, and with a valid track, the Radar maintains lock on the target in FTT or GMTT as long as the target remains unmasked and within the A/G gimbal limits, or is commanded to break lock. If a break lock or commanded undesignation occurs, the MC will create a stabilized ground designation at the last point of contact."

 

As well as:

"Designation of an aimpoint is therefore a three step process:

 

The Acquisition Cursor is slewed over the area of interest ▲/▼/◄/►

The TDC is designated ENT which invokes the Designation Cursor and freezes the display.

The Designation Cursor is slewed (or not) and designated once more, which places the Stabilized Cue, removes the Designation Cursor, and unfreezes the display.

The Stabilized Cue represents the NAV designation on the radar format much like the TD diamond represents the ground target in the HUD. Weapons may be employed on the NAV stabilized target just as with any other ground designation. However, note that a NAV stabilized designation is NOT the same as a Radar Tracking Designation. It is a fixed-geographic point just as if it were designated through the HUD or via the HSI as a waypoint/OAP."

 

To command track, you do sensor control up with the radar DDI as SOI. At that time, the radar attempts a track at the location of the nav stabilized cue.

Edited April 25, 2020 by LastRifleRound

[Harker]

Since I haven't played any sim contains ag radar, my knowledge is almost nonexistent.

Can we track via tgp what we are tracking with ground radar at the same time on the other mfd?

Yes, once commanded to FTT, the radar will create a designation point on the ground (the typical target diamond) and then the TGP can be slaved to it.

[LastRifleRound]

So, the answer to #1 is "yes" after all. I knew the terrain didn't have an RCS so I was afraid they'd "cheat" but the delay notes suggest otherwise.