Marshall stack bank angle / speed / cues help

[markturner1960]

Hi , while waiting for the SC, I am trying to get fully up to speed with operations around the boat.

 

Can someone give some help regrading the best way to set yourself up for a nice circular marshall stack cruise ? I am trying at 350 kts, to maintain a circle over the ship, using AP, but it is very hard, I keep making spirals and cant seem to hit the sweet spot of bank angle and position cues.....

[Swift.]

250KIAS for fuel efficiency

30degrees AOB keeps you well within(about 3.x NM) the 5NM limit

AP: ATC at 250, bank to 30, press BALT, press ATT

[Creepy]

250KCAS like Swiftwings said for the Case I stack (it’s a little faster, but close to MaxE in most configurations and standardizes everyone’s speed in the stack for setup purposes), small modulations in bank angle from 25-30 deg to account for ship’s movement to keep Mom at Point 1 of the circle. Since Mom is moving, you’ll want to have a shallower AoB in the part of the circle in front of the boat and steeper once you’re in the second half to help “walk” your circle forward to keep it over the ship. You’ll also want to get as close to hitting 5NM as you can at Point 3 of the circle (abeam Mom on the port side of the circle), this is again for stack standardization so everyone flies the same circle and knows where to look in the sky to visually pick up everyone else easier.

 

If you’re wondering about Case II/III, setting up for a timing problem To hit a specific push time in a marshal stack is a different animal and there are many techniques, I’d be happy to share mine as a frame of reference if that’s of interest.

[markturner1960]

Thanks a lot guys, plenty of great tips there, I have been putting some practice and finding it easier now, thanks again. Creepy, please feel free to give case 2/3 info, thank you.

[G B]

Thanks a lot guys, plenty of great tips there, I have been putting some practice and finding it easier now, thanks again. Creepy, please feel free to give case 2/3 info, thank you.

 

 

I draw this. It's based off of intercepting this profile and maintaining 300 knots groundspeed. It's the most common technique I've seen used but is by no means the only one.

[Creepy]

Creepy, please feel free to give case 2/3 info, thank you.

 

Reference G B’s comment, I make a similar drawing/reference 300 GS as well once it gets close enough to my push time, people just draw it differently for how their own brain works... so whatever makes sense/is easy for you to draw with this method.

 

Like G B said, that is the most common method I’ve seen as well, but there are people who are different too (I’ve seen dudes do standard/half standard rate turns anchored at their assigned DME for instance). It really just boils down to what is comfortable/consistently repeatable for you.

[G B]

Reference G B’s comment, I make a similar drawing/reference 300 GS as well once it gets close enough to my push time, people just draw it differently for how their own brain works... so whatever makes sense/is easy for you to draw with this method.

 

Like G B said, that is the most common method I’ve seen as well, but there are people who are different too (I’ve seen dudes do standard/half standard rate turns anchored at their assigned DME for instance). It really just boils down to what is comfortable/consistently repeatable for you.

 

One of my favorites was the guys who would turn inbound and see their distance to go to the fix with 1 minute left and then set that in mach number. So with 1 minute left they had 6.7 miles to go, they’d set mach .67. They swear it worked but I never adopted it.

[maxTRX]

How many seconds (minutes;)) can you be off at push time before someone starts 'frowning'?

[=4c=Nikola]

One of my favorites was the guys who would turn inbound and see their distance to go to the fix with 1 minute left and then set that in mach number. So with 1 minute left they had 6.7 miles to go, they’d set mach .67. They swear it worked but I never adopted it.

 

Aren't you supposed to push with 250kias?

 

How many seconds (minutes;)) can you be off at push time before someone starts 'frowning'?

 

Documentation says 10 seconds, and math supports that such tolerance would assure safe separation and sequencing, but people here claim that you need to be within 0.00001 second.

[maxTRX]

I got yelled at by my virtual marshall controller once when I shoved the throttles forward to catch up lol

[G B]

How many seconds (minutes;)) can you be off at push time before someone starts 'frowning'?

 

The book answer is 10 seconds or else call Marshal and tell them you won’t make it. But nothing stopped anybody from transmitting at the correct time even if they weren’t exactly at the fix ;). Better to die than to look bad!

[G B]

Aren't you supposed to push with 250kias?

 

 

 

Documentation says 10 seconds, and math supports that such tolerance would assure safe separation and sequencing, but people here claim that you need to be within 0.00001 second.

 

Yes that’s right 250. However 300 ground is not that far off from 250 indicated. You can lose the excess 15ish knots fairly quickly as you hit the fix.

 

Edit: for the mach number guys, or the typical procedure guys that are late and speeding up...well you better adjust your speed real quick as soon as you hit the fix! Pretty embarrassing to hear “305 take speed 250!”

[=4c=Nikola]

Yes that’s right 250. However 300 ground is not that far off from 250 indicated. You can lose the excess 15ish knots fairly quickly as you hit the fix.

 

I do not see that as a problem, but some alleged naval aviators at this forum claimed you need to be:

at the exact distance,

at the exact velocity,

at the exact time,

 

every time, no tolerances at all.

 

I've never believed them.

[G B]

I do not see that as a problem, but some alleged naval aviators at this forum claimed you need to be:

at the exact distance,

at the exact velocity,

at the exact time,

 

every time, no tolerances at all.

 

I've never believed them.

 

Yes. You should be as exact as you can. But if you aren’t, the world won’t fall apart. The expectation is precision.

 

That said, the technique I described earlier (not the novel mach number technique) requires an airspeed in the box a little greater than 250. That is accepted to make the 300 ground work. Still hit your fix exactly on time, on altitude, etc.

 

The reallly really really important time for precision is after you commence.

 

VSI exactly 4000fpm to platform, then 2000fpm. Exactly 250. Dirty up at exactly 8 miles. Fly exact courses. Etc. This is to ensure spacing is accurate and to avoid costly foul deck waveoffs or slowdowns in the recovery or vectors or other such shenanigans.

 

Edit: we are only human. We will not be able to be that exact, but we will make every effort to be there. If the VSI hits 4100fpm for example, it’s not the end of the world. Recognize it and fix it and get it Right.

Edited May 16, 2020 by G B

[=4c=Nikola]

Yes. You should be as exact as you can. But if you aren’t, the world won’t fall apart. The expectation is precision.

 

That said, the technique I described earlier (not the novel mach number technique) requires an airspeed in the box a little greater than 250. That is accepted to make the 300 ground work. Still hit your fix exactly on time, on altitude, etc.

 

The reallly really really important time for precision is after you commence.

 

VSI exactly 4000fpm to platform, then 2000fpm. Exactly 250. Dirty up at exactly 8 miles. Fly exact courses. Etc. This is to ensure spacing is accurate and to avoid costly foul deck waveoffs or slowdowns in the recovery or vectors or other such shenanigans.

 

Edit: we are only human. We will not be able to be that exact, but we will make every effort to be there. If the VSI hits 4100fpm for example, it’s not the end of the world. Recognize it and fix it and get it Right.

 

Yea, that's reasonable.

 

Tnx for the info.

[maxTRX]

Yes. You should be as exact as you can. But if you aren’t, the world won’t fall apart. The expectation is precision.

 

That said, the technique I described earlier (not the novel mach number technique) requires an airspeed in the box a little greater than 250. That is accepted to make the 300 ground work. Still hit your fix exactly on time, on altitude, etc.

 

The reallly really really important time for precision is after you commence.

 

VSI exactly 4000fpm to platform, then 2000fpm. Exactly 250. Dirty up at exactly 8 miles. Fly exact courses. Etc. This is to ensure spacing is accurate and to avoid costly foul deck waveoffs or slowdowns in the recovery or vectors or other such shenanigans.

 

Edit: we are only human. We will not be able to be that exact, but we will make every effort to be there. If the VSI hits 4100fpm for example, it’s not the end of the world. Recognize it and fix it and get it Right.

At which point do you normally transition to on-speed, not at 8nm?

[G B]

At which point do you normally transition to on-speed, not at 8nm?

 

Gear down, flaps full, at 8 miles. The book requires you to be on-speed at 6 miles. Well, given the time/distance to slow down, just go straight to on-speed when you dirty up.

 

 

All of this is in CV NATOPS, FYI.

 

 

As a PSA, the Case III diagrams in the NATOPS flight manual do not align with CV NATOPS. They are not accurate and are not referenced.

[maxTRX]

Gear down, flaps full, at 8 miles. The book requires you to be on-speed at 6 miles. Well, given the time/distance to slow down, just go straight to on-speed when you dirty up.

 

 

All of this is in CV NATOPS, FYI.

 

 

As a PSA, the Case III diagrams in the NATOPS flight manual do not align with CV NATOPS. They are not accurate and are not referenced.

 

Thanks, just got a 'new' copy.

[markturner1960]

I draw this. It's based off of intercepting this profile and maintaining 300 knots groundspeed. It's the most common technique I've seen used but is by no means the only one.

 

Sorry for the nugget question, but what do the numbers represent in this? You guys are at a higher level with this stuff than me I am afraid....

[G B]

Sorry for the nugget question, but what do the numbers represent in this? You guys are at a higher level with this stuff than me I am afraid....

 

 

The numbers with the colon are times. Minutes past the hour specifically. The numbers in the middle are the TACAN DME. So 300 knots ground speed = 5 NM per minute.

[=4c=Nikola]

Hey G B, how common is for catc to establish marshall stack at radial different from final approach radial?

[G B]

Hey G B, how common is for catc to establish marshall stack at radial different from final approach radial?

 

Pretty much every time.

[Razor18]

What is the "missed approach procedure" for someone boltering or waving off during Case III recovery? Will you be stacked back up again, or? Obviously you can't just fly another Case I pattern around the boat, because you can't see too much (at night or IMC), and you have a long chain of precisely timed aircrafts coming down to land too.

[Swift.]

What is the "missed approach procedure" for someone boltering or waving off during Case III recovery? Will you be stacked back up again, or? Obviously you can't just fly another Case I pattern around the boat, because you can't see too much (at night or IMC), and you have a long chain of precisely timed aircrafts coming down to land too.

 

Approach will instruct you to turn downwind and then back upwind again as required.

 

I can remember the exact numbers so I will pull these from thin air and gut feel:

Bolter, gear up flaps half, climb 1200ft

Approach instructs you downwind nlt 2NM ahead the ship,

Pass abeam the ship at 2NM,

Approach will instruct you to turn upwind between 4-8NM astern the ship (gear down during or just after the turn distance depending),

intercept the needles and land.

[Razor18]

You can probably do that if you were alone or last in the stack. But if you were not, what will aircrafts, that were behind you in the stack and have in 1 minute intervalls behind you already committed, and coming down in a string, precisely flying the numbers do, while you are mothing around?