the ground war.......

[uhoh7]

I’ve been getting back into lockon in anticipation of 1.1 and working quite a bit with the mission editor and ground conflict scenerios for the A10 and Su25

 

I’m very impressed with the active ground conflicts which can be created with the ME.

 

In the long run, I hope ED can take a look at ways to enhance situational awareness in flight and try get get us away from the icons whenever possible.

 

In RL, of course there are extensive briefings and reviews of the terrain and situation. But many simmers just want to get into the air and get to the conflict. Once there finding and identifying targets can be a challenge. There is the Awacs view, but that is an immersion killer. I also notice that at 1600x1200 the awacs view is not always in sync with the map: objects do show their true relations however.

 

Since we are going to be doing a lot of mud moving, I wonder if it might be possible to have a “knee map”. My idea is that the mission designer could make kneemaps for specific flights. This would be a static map, but with the detail we see when flying, like a small screen shot of an area, a crossroads or whatever. The a few simple ways to add arrows and short notes. A toogle could bring up the kneemap to help the pilot identify the target area, maybe partial screen, and the additional information of say which road our spearhead in coming down and where we expect enemy resistence.

 

I also notice vehicles are very hard to spot unless you are right one them, without icons.

 

Vehcile ID is also very difficult at the speeds we are flying. In barbarossa, the germans but flags on the back decks of their vehicles for just this reason. Would such a marking option be a possibility in the future?

 

Thank you so much for all your hard work and attention.

 

uhoh7

[SUBS17]

One thing I discovered on HL was a A/G mission with no waypoints to the target. So I shot a bearing and distance with the map from WP1(there was only 1 WP to the AO) in the briefing room onto the grid coordinates of the targets. A very cool approach, nice to be able to do that. In mission I managed to get there and do the buisness.

cheers

Subs

PS you could print the map or get better aquainted with the terrain.

[Caretaker]

Re: the ground war.......

 

Vehcile ID is also very difficult at the speeds we are flying. In barbarossa, the germans but flags on the back decks of their vehicles for just this reason.

 

This was often done with captured Russian tanks, so that a T-34 in German service wasn't attacked by other German forces. Otherwise though camouflage was considered more important, and probably still is. Correct target identification is a problem in real life as well, as some unfortunate friendly fire incidents in recent times have shown. But of course the additional restrictions of a computer monitor only make it harder.

 

I agree that additional briefing options like images of the target area would be very nice, but they require additional work when designing a mission and cannot be integrated into the game (at least currently ;)).

[uhoh7]

Re: the ground war.......

 

Vehcile ID is also very difficult at the speeds we are flying. In barbarossa, the germans but flags on the back decks of their vehicles for just this reason.

 

This was often done with captured Russian tanks, so that a T-34 in German service wasn't attacked by other German forces. Otherwise though camouflage was considered more important, and probably still is. Correct target identification is a problem in real life as well, as some unfortunate friendly fire incidents in recent times have shown. But of course the additional restrictions of a computer monitor only make it harder.

 

I agree that additional briefing options like images of the target area would be very nice, but they require additional work when designing a mission and cannot be integrated into the game (at least currently ;)).

 

Thanks so much for your relpies,

 

Actually, thanks to Oleg Maddox, hehe I have many books on the eastern front. There are many many photos of mark3 and mark4 tanks with swastikas painted or draped on the top of the back deck. As you proabbaly know there were quite a few friendly fire incidents.

 

Re the "kneemap" I understand it would take some work to add this feature, but perhaps with the KA-50 addon, some feature like this might be considered.

 

Once you see the armor in this sim in action, well it's pretty awesome. In my last mission i put 4 "mistas" targeted on an advancing column of M1s. They decimated the column untill some bradlleys came up by road from the south and hit them with TOWS.

 

The bradley seem to have a large supply of TOWs hehe

[Whisper]

Re: the ground war.......

 

The bradley seem to have a large supply of TOWs hehe

Yeah, a bit too much. Same remark for BMPs.

[EricJ]

One thing I discovered on HL was a A/G mission with no waypoints to the target. So I shot a bearing and distance with the map from WP1(there was only 1 WP to the AO) in the briefing room onto the grid coordinates of the targets. A very cool approach, nice to be able to do that. In mission I managed to get there and do the buisness.

cheers

Subs

PS you could print the map or get better aquainted with the terrain.

 

Actually that's pretty much how real life CAS is done. There aren't any waypoints since most of the time CAS is on-call, not preplanned, unless of course you're talking about a large operation.

 

As for ID. The best thing to do is A) have friendlies move, enemies stationary, waypoint pointing to target area, or B) reverse except still have waypoint point towards the engagement area. Or the mission builder should be VERY specific if it's supposed to be a meeting engagement, in which case, leave it to the AI and just take out anything you think may be the enemy. Or at least code it so that the pilot has a pair of binos (binoculars) to visually identify the target.

 

Then again, I've done a CAS mission where the direction was correct, as well as the distance. It's very easy to perform, but then again, we're not talking about hills, valleys, etc. But apply the above to mission design, and should hopefully solve some problems.

 

And on the Bradleys. M2s carry seven, M3s carry 12.

[SAM-Smasher]

I agree that additional briefing options like images of the target area would be very nice, but they require additional work when designing a mission and cannot be integrated into the game (at least currently ).

 

Yeah I tend to put some "recon photos" In Jpeg format into the mission folder, and in the mission briefing I put a prompt to open that file, which of course means you then have to Alt-Tab to windows and open it, but still its quite fun if your not bothered by switching to Windows of course. Obviously it would be nice... as usual :wink:

[Starlight]

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_048a.html

 

this is a good reading for CAS in the A-10

 

About the nazi flag, yes it was carried also by German tanks, not only captured Russian tanks, because there had been many friendly fire cases.

Also the "invasion stripes" were put on allied aircraft before the invasion of Normandy. And, more recently, Israelis put huge black/yellow triangles on the wings of their Mirages, to avoid them beign mistaken with other Arab Mirages.

During some operations, mainly when you suppose your own forces are superior to enemy forces, you are glad to trade camouflage for identification.

 

About CAS there are some things to say.

- It is well known that if ground objects can be seen from a great distance (if they are in open ground), it's also true that it's very hard to actually identify them. It's hard to identify if they're friend or foe, and it's sometimes hard to identify if it's a civilian or a military target

- Pilots involved with CAS missions in general have a good knowledge of the terrain where they're gonna operate and where friendly and enemy forces should be (even if also in the Gulf War this lead to some friendly-fire accidents).

- Those pilots often can rely on ground support for target ID, with actual pilots or well-trained FACs teamed with ground troops. Such FACs can ID more easily the ground targets and can also place laser tags or smoke shells to mark the enemy forces.

- If the situation is more "dynamic", FACs can be implemented with other aircraft, helicopters or even drones (UAVs). The A-10 has often carried the OA-10 designation because of its FAC role (sometimes carried out over former Jugoslavia). The A-10 in Germany were sometimes teamed with Army's OV-10 Broncos or with helicopters.

[GGTharos]

SUBS17, that would be my mission, heh. Glad you enjoyed it :D

[SAM-Smasher]

SUBS17, that would be my mission, heh. Glad you enjoyed it

 

Excuse me for asking GGTharos, but where can I get hold of that, I'd like to try that, im a keen mud-mover, and that sounds like a really interesting idea for me to try out. :wink:

[GGTharos]

SAM smasher, it's a mission that runs on the 44th server on hyperlobby. I can gladly provide it to you, however keep in mind that it's an MP mission with fighters and strike aircraft with objectives on both sides. Flying it alone would probably get rather boring after the first time :)

[SAM-Smasher]

Oh I see, sorry. I could find it useful though, a few of us meet up to fly on LAN, so it would be quite good for us, to have a go at. how many pilots would I need to muster for a good flight?

 

I will join you all on Hyper Lobby as soon as I get a good internet connection, ie not my current 56k "sob"

 

Thanks

[GGTharos]

56K will do IF you're getting a good realiable connection that's actually CLOSE to 56k.

 

This mission was designed for at /least/ 4 on each side and could easily do with 8 per side.

 

You can play it with 2 per side but it'd be pretty boring.

[SAM-Smasher]

good realiable connection that's actually CLOSE to 56k.

If only I were that lucky.... :roll: :wink: cough cough... AOL ... cough cough

 

I should be able to muster about 4 of us, the rest dont fly LOMAC... YET :twisted:

 

Im sure I will meet you in the sky's of Lockon in the near future, and get shot down lol :D

[GGTharos]

Log into the 44th's HL server when that mission's running (you'll know if it's that one by the briefing, it'll include A-10's and Su-25s) and hit the save button, it'll save the mission to your HD.

[SAM-Smasher]

Thank you for that, I will get hold of it when I can, look forward to trying it out. :wink:

[uhoh7]

TY for all comments!!!

 

regarding ground vehicle visablity.

 

interesting subject since 1c has been adjusting this in the latest patches in PF.

 

It does seem like it is possible to adjust visibilty, since they are doing it within the space of a few weeks with a pretty big program.

 

ANYTHING is better than icons!

 

I really hope ED takes a hard look at the ID issues in mudmoving in the future. There are lots of ways to go. An inflight kneemap, created by the mission designer, might be simplest and involved the least cpu overhead, though I know it involves adding to the ME.

 

Some sort of radio comms with ground forces or laser targeting from friendlies are other possiblities.

 

It's a pain to add features, I know, but this is a pretty fundamental issue considering the direction the sim is going, and could really help to get more guys interested, and keep them playing!

 

Please don't think I'm not gratefull for all the hard work done by the ED team.

 

all the best,

 

uhoh7

[EricJ]

The only thing I can add is that the Pre-designated targets are pretty much "troops lasing for you". It's not really implemented, but would be a good mission building tool, where you have to figure out angles of observation, but it's assumed the designator has eyes on, and is doing his job.

[SUBS17]

SUBS17, that would be my mission, heh. Glad you enjoyed it :D

 

Yep, it was fun trying to figure out a way to find those targets from WP1

great stuff

[SUBS17]

SAM smasher, it's a mission that runs on the 44th server on hyperlobby. I can gladly provide it to you, however keep in mind that it's an MP mission with fighters and strike aircraft with objectives on both sides. Flying it alone would probably get rather boring after the first time :)

 

With enemy migs flying around its never boring, just hope you have a good escourt like I did.

[uhoh7]

One simple short term fix which might make a big difference, tell me if it is already possible:

 

ground padlock enemy and frrendly, buth in the cockpit and externallly with padlock next and last options.

 

This feature has been in il2 since the begining. Of course I am not a programer, so I don't know how difficult to add it would be.

 

But if ED is going to give us 2 great ground attack platforms, the new SU and the KA-50 later on, then I really think some tweaks are in order to enhance the experience. Again the icons mar an otherwise beautiful landscape and object enviroment.

 

The visiblitly of ground vehicles is another pretty big issue. Without icons, they blur into the landscape at very short distances. I made a tank battle last night, and from the distance where I turned around for another run, and it was tight, the tanks were almost invisible. I found myself constantly toggling icons on and off. If you zoom you can spot them, but you have to know exactly where to zoom!

 

Please don't get me wrong, I will buy any simulation add-on or stand alone product which ED releases regardless. I have since Flanker2.

 

All the best, and thanks again for your great products,

 

uhoh7

[SUBS17]

Actually it would be a step backwards if you do that. In real life its difficult to ID ground vehicles anyway. If you find it too difficult then I suggest flying lower is one way. In the A-10 missions alot of the ground targets are already in the HUD. So locating them is very easy. In the Su25 you have to rely on your location on the battlefield as to avoid a friendly fire incident. Its just a fact of life in a fast jet unless you have some advanced optics and a lowlight tv.

cheers

Subs

[Passed_Pawn]

A few things which may help offline. I don't know if they will work online.

 

1) Labels can be modified. Here is a brief tutorial, author unknown.

 

"LABELS FORMAT:

I play on a flat panel monitor and can only reach 1280x768. So I am a weanie that tends to use labels particularly for A/G.

 

One of the problems is that the 3 lines of text tend to overlap multiple ground objects.

 

You can change this in the \config\view\labels lua by eliminating what you don't think you need:

 

Before = LabelFormat = "%N%n%D%n%p"

 

After = LabelFormat = "%N%n"

 

The difference here is that there is only 1 line of text identifying object.

 

That's the main problem with labels to begin with IMHO. The overlapping kind of makes it useless, especially in the ATG role.

 

My labels' setup is:

LabelFormat = "%^%n%N"

 

I use the "^" to clearly mark where the ground/air object is located. Then, I have the name placed next to it, so, if you see an armored column rolling down a road, a "^" will indicate where the vehicle is and the name will be slighly off to the right of the mark."

 

Following the above principles one may create any sort of label one wants. If you want the minimum you can just have a period, a * or a + to mark ground targets without any names at all. Try experimenting. It's also a good way to wean off labels without going cold turkey.

 

2) Study the map, if it provides detailed information, very carefully before starting a mission. You can often identify your assigned ground targets by their positions relative to other enemy units. For example, three convoys on a road and your target is the middle group of vehicles. All you need to see is which group of vehicles is in the middle. You don't have to get close and personal to visually confirm that you have the correct type of vehicle in your sights.

 

I know that this is not the kind of fix people are looking for but it may prove helpful for the time being. Hope it helps. :)

[uhoh7]

TY for advice with labels PP

 

"Actually it would be a step backwards if you do that. In real life its difficult to ID ground vehicles anyway. If you find it too difficult then I suggest flying lower is one way. In the A-10 missions alot of the ground targets are already in the HUD. So locating them is very easy. In the Su25 you have to rely on your location on the battlefield as to avoid a friendly fire incident. Its just a fact of life in a fast jet unless you have some advanced optics and a lowlight tv.

cheers

Subs"

 

The abiltiy to padlock ground objects, enemy or friendly, would simply be an option which a player or server can choose or not.

 

Now the options are labels or near blindness... hehe

 

with respect,

 

uhoh7

[SUBS17]

Its more a matter of scanning and noticing objects that stand out, I know they look like tiny dots but it is noticable from the normal objects on the ground. Also your RWR is another handy tool as you will sometimes detect SAMs/AAA which are protecting enemy vehicles. Also with a Track IR, padlock would not be necessary.

cheers

Subs