Making DCS more accessible to new players.

[PL_Harpoon]

You know what I’m going to say right... wait for it...

READ THE #@$&ING MANUAL!

It’s all in there! Taking off, landing, flying patterns, navigation, combat employment, AAR

And it’s already in the interactive tutorials!

And there are hundreds of YouTube videos on this stuff!

:doh:

Yeah, I wonder why they have instructors IRL. It's all in the manuals and there's tons of videos of real life landings. That should obviously be enough...

[Vertigo72]

You know what I’m going to say right... wait for it...

READ THE #@$&ING MANUAL!

It’s all in there!

 

It just plain isnt all in there. I have given countless examples already. Keep ignoring them. Ill give you one more. Please tell me which training mission or what page of what manual properly explains comms in DCS, in particular for the F14?

 

How do you reckon a newbie flying a mission or campaign that has easy comms disabled figures out that pressing the comms menu binding that the training video told him about, brings up a menu that doesnt do anything? How do you reckon he will find out he need to press the MIC button to bring up a menu, that he has to press the correct mic button for the correct radio for which he should have set the correct frequency before he can use that menu. That he may need to use jester to set that frequency. That he may need to consult his kneeboard to find the frequency. Its not in the F14 manual. Its not explained to any reasonable degree in the DCS manual. GR have a 20 minute video on just using the F14 radio's and comms menu without which I would probably never have figured out why that bloody awacs or tanker or atc wasnt responding to my calls. And if the best ED could do is have frigging paper clip popup when I repeatedly use the wrong comm menu, then Ill take it. Its better than getting frustrated because you cant progress in your campaign because you cant use the bloody radio.

 

And DCS is littered with such pitfalls, because the module developers (understandably) dont see it as their job to provide basic tutorials that pertain to DCS in general. Never mind things that pertain to combat in general. Where is that 20 year veteran 737 pilot going to learn about, say notching missiles ? What page of the manual is that described in? No where.

 

As Harpoon said, there is a reason we have RL instructors and flight schools. RTFM is not the answer. WFYT is at least a less terrible answer. A proper built in "flight school " would be a far better answer.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Vertigo72

[LordOrion]

Im putting this in a separate thread rather than continuing in the AAR thread, as its a different topic, and one I think is more important. How do you make DCS more noob friendly.

 

 

<TL & Cut>

 

 

 

Probably someone else had told you this before but "repetita juvant":

 

 

1. Do not use Game Mode: it will not help you at all.
   
2. Read the F-14 Chuck's Guide (CG): it will provide all the basic info you need to quickly start fly and practice with the Tomcat while studying it.
   
3. Once get aquainted with the basic plane procedures thanks to the CG, then start RTMF! Yes, you need to do it but at that time understand it will be simpler, and you can take your time since you will be able to fly the plane.
   
4. (in parallel with 2 and 3): Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice...
   

1-2 months and you will be an F-14 Ace :pilotfly:

[Vertigo72]

Probably someone else had told you this before but "repetita juvant":

 

repetita iuvant, let me do exactly that.

 

But first, all credit to chucks excellent work, without a doubt his manuals along with GR videos are the best hope newbies have right now, provided they find them, or would even search for them when they get a game with 1000 page worth of manuals with embedded youtube clips and built in training missions.

 

To his credit, chuck does cover many of the things I mentioned and that the official manuals dont, and he doesnt go in ridiculous details about things a newbie wont care yet. ED would be wise to make it a default manual and point buyers to that. But just the two examples I listed a few minutes earlier, even his guide offers very little and no help.

 

Re the comms, I guess the screenshot of the mic button keybinding at least pushes you in the right direction, but its hardly an explanation and anyone new to DCS could reasonably assume a mic button key binding is for voice comm and something different than a "comm menu" for which there is another keybind. Its one of so many little things that DCS veterans dont grasp that newbies dont know. Anyway, this one should be easy to add, Ill drop chuck a message and see if there are some other similar things he may have overlooked.

 

The other most recent example I listed, notching missiles, isnt covered. Should that be in that sort of manual? Maybe not. Its not F14 specific. But newbies are going to get shot at and someone must teach them things like that. So now we are pointing newbies to at least three different and overlapping manuals and none of them are a good alternative to a "flight school".

Its probably the best we have right now. I dont think its anywhere near as good as it could be or should be.

[LordOrion]

But first, all credit to chucks excellent work,

 

 

Always be blessed!

 

 

 

The other most recent example I listed, notching missiles, isnt covered. Should that be in that sort of manual? Maybe not. Its not F14 specific. But newbies are going to get shot at and someone must teach them things like that.

 

 

Try look at Growling Sidewinders videos on youtube: he explains how to make missiles bleed energy and avoid them in a nice way using tacview.

[randomTOTEN]

Okay,

 

 

Lets try getting the point across this way. I think I can see what's going on here:

Ill give you one more. Please tell me which training mission or what page of what manual properly explains comms in DCS, in particular for the F14?

For the A-10C, the aircraft radio system is described in the DCS A-10C Flight Manual EN.pdf on pages 53 & 54 (includes picture of tuning heads in the cockpit). The throttle MIC switch function is depicted and described on page 90-91. The location of the UHF frequency repeater is on page 93. The radio control units are depicted and described on pages 139-145.

 

For a cold start, "radio setup" is on page 431-433, this also describes the steps to correctly send a message to ATC, but doesn't describe what message to send.

 

...now get ready... brew yourself a tea/coffee... you're gonna like this next part.

There is an ENTIRE CHAPTER DEVOTED TO EXPLAINING HOW RADIO COMMS WORK IN DCS

It runs from pages 629-652.

It tells you where to find frequencies, it tells you how to contact ATC and when. It has pictures of the various formations you can assign to your flight. It tells you how JTAC communication works.

 

Now, I'm not going to go into this much detail for every module I own, but I will at bare minimum give you the CHAPTER reference for radio communications. Lets just (I think fairly) assume they all show you how the peculiar radios work.

 

AJS-37 (another HB product). no Communication chapter.. only aircraft specific radios described.

Bf-109K4. Comm chapter pg. 157-173

F-5E-3. No communication chapter. But use of the radios is required to connect external air start, that functionality is explained during cold start.

F-16C. Early access guide.. it only shows you how to work the radios. pg 74-78.

F-86. No communication chapter.

F/A-18C Lot 20. Another early access module. "How to use the radios" pg. 104-105.

Flaming Cliffs 3. Entire chapter pg. 221-231.

Kamov Ka-50. Entire chapter pg. 492-522.

L-39C/ZA. No communication chapter. But table in appendix showing relevant frequencies for airports in the Caucasus and Nevada.

M-2000C. No communications chapter.

Mi-8MTV2. No communications chapter.

MiG-15bis. No communications chapter.

P-51D. Communications chapter pg. 159-178.

Su-25T. Short communications chapter pg. 36-42.

UH-1H. No communications chapter.

 

So we can see, it's a mixed bag with the manuals. The first two modules (A-10C and Ka-50) had excellent chapters on communication, and that probably allowed many of us to transition easy to other modules. You starting with the F-14 didn't have that luxury, and it seems you might be left a little high and dry without that knowledge. But rest assured some of these modules have extremely thorough explanations (as in, it describes every single menu item that exists), much better than the goof balls over at the GR can get it wrong again...

 

How do you reckon a newbie flying a mission or campaign that has easy comms disabled figures out that pressing the comms menu binding that the training video told him about, brings up a menu that doesnt do anything? How do you reckon he will find out he need to press the MIC button to bring up a menu, that he has to press the correct mic button for the correct radio for which he should have set the correct frequency before he can use that menu. That he may need to use jester to set that frequency. That he may need to consult his kneeboard to find the frequency. Its not in the F14 manual.

Yes it is... at least some of what you've described. Your manual describes the radios, shows where they are located, describes every control they have. Gives the usable frequencies. Shows where on the HOTAS the transmit control is, and which direction to move it to transmit the message. That's the bare minimum standard for every manual I own (the bare minimum). Frankly you are being disingenuous when you claim somebody doesn't know to select the correct mic button for the correct radio with the correct frequency. That is all described in the manual, even if it doesn't say why they should do it or how (that's what the communication chapter is for).

 

Where is that 20 year veteran 737 pilot going to learn about, say notching missiles ? What page of the manual is that described in? No where.

Well if he chose to fly Flaming Cliffs, he would find that information under the heading "Missile Breakaway" on pg. 263-267. That's not in the A-10C manual but we can hopefully give the poor Warthog a break, it's manual is already 671 pages!

 

As Harpoon said, there is a reason we have RL instructors and flight schools. RTFM is not the answer. WFYT is at least a less terrible answer. A proper built in "flight school " would be a far better answer.

Any proper flight school sends you home with helpful books on day 1. You've already suggested you're a glider instructor. Yes on the intro flight you get the stick in their hands ASAP ("Instant Action"), but by at least day three I expect you would be having them crack the POH at least...

 

And maybe this is a blind spot for experienced users. We do assume that there is a lot more in these manuals then there actually might be. By the 3rd time I see the "Communications" chapter I skip it. That's probably why it's not so present in later aircraft.

 

We had to make do with complicated ass aircraft on day 1, and scouring the internet for information. Those who did it obviously enjoyed that experience, and those who didn't aren't part of the discussion. When new users ask about their first purchases we often suggest "get the aircraft you really want (assuming the motivation will be enough to keep you learning)." And maybe that's unfounded. "Drinking from the fire hose," may not be the way to go. It might be better to suggest to somebody like you to get the F-5, but then again there's no Communication chapter in that one, and you're not going to be doing a good job notching AIM-54's as you get slaughtered by the AI or other players.

 

The basic problem is that you think handholding is great, but handholding sucks. You can only teach what you remember, and what YOU think is important. You will often make mistakes... much more so than a carefully crafted document (even with it's errors). In real training the student comes to the aircraft prepared, and Heatblur tried to impress that concept on new users by asking them to read the manual before running the cold start. You can consolidate your reading while you see the engines starting, the tests being run (that you already read about), and see the INS you barely understand get initialized an aligned.

 

But it get it.. don't bother me with this silly INS stuff, and these dumb tests.. get that stick in my hands and get me shooting.:music_whistling:

[Emmy]

If education by experience weren’t a thing, Red Flag (IRL) wouldn’t exist.

[jasonbirder]

The other most recent example I listed, notching missiles, isnt covered. Should that be in that sort of manual?

 

 

TBF isn't that SUPER advanced stuff?

I figure if you've got to the point of mastering VFR & IFR flight and landings, comms, AAR, amneuvering etc and are moving onto BVR combat...you're already pretty far down the rabbit hole and don't need a virtual assistant...to have got THAT far you'll have already had to RTFM a hundred times and be intimately familiar with every you tube tutorial under the sun!

[PL_Harpoon]

Try look at Growling Sidewinders videos on youtube: he explains how to make missiles bleed energy and avoid them in a nice way using tacview.

 

 

It's not that there isn't enough material to learn DCS.

The whole point is that the learning curve for DCS wouldn't be as steep for new players if it was all available in the game, preferably in the form of interactive tutorials.

 

 

It might be easy for ppl like me to learn from YT videos or manuals but I've been playing sims for 20+ years (starting as a kid with lots of free time to spend). I can only imagine how difficult it can be for someone who doesn't have that experience.

[PL_Harpoon]

TBF isn't that SUPER advanced stuff?

I figure if you've got to the point of mastering VFR & IFR flight and landings, comms, AAR, amneuvering etc and are moving onto BVR combat...you're already pretty far down the rabbit hole and don't need a virtual assistant...to have got THAT far you'll have already had to RTFM a hundred times and be intimately familiar with every you tube tutorial under the sun!

 

 

First of all, who said you need to master all of those things before starting with BVR?

 

Let's be honest, a lot of ppl play combat sims because they want to drop bombs and shoot missiles at stuff. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach.

 

 

 

Secondly, it's not just a matter of finding the information on the right stuff. If you're new to flight sims you might not even know that there's such a thing as notching, f-pole mnvr, 1 vs 2 circle fights, etc. How are you supposed to look for information for stuff that you don't know exist?

 

 

What I mean is, currently it takes years to get to the point that most of us (especially the RTFM guys) are. That can easily be cut in half or even more with proper tutorials within the game.

[LordOrion]

It's not that there isn't enough material to learn DCS.

The whole point is that the learning curve for DCS wouldn't be as steep for new players if it was all available in the game, preferably in the form of interactive tutorials.

 

 

It might be easy for ppl like me to learn from YT videos or manuals but I've been playing sims for 20+ years (starting as a kid with lots of free time to spend). I can only imagine how difficult it can be for someone who doesn't have that experience.

 

 

Frankly speaking I don't understand why having an internal interactive tutorial is better than a good YT video (again "good YT video") followed by practice on a custom made mission.

 

 

In 1989, when I stated my virtual pilot career with F-16 Combat Pilot on my C64, YT was not around and everything I got to learn was the manual and a lot of "lesson learned" being shot down by SAM or fighters (and consider that game load time was around 10 min!!)... and I did it! After some time of patient practicing I was able to t/o hit my target and land safely.

[jasonbirder]

 

 

 

Secondly, it's not just a matter of finding the information on the right stuff. If you're new to flight sims you might not even know that there's such a thing as notching, f-pole mnvr, 1 vs 2 circle fights, etc. How are you supposed to look for information for stuff that you don't know exist?

 

 

 

I'll whole-heartedly agree with you on this...whilst I think the DCS manuals (at least the fully completed ones such as say, the A10C) do a fantastic job of describing the systems and showing you HOW things work...

They are terrible (to the point its obviously a conscious decision) at showing the WHAT and the WHY - there is literally no effort made at integrating the systems part, say for example, how to set up DSMS bomb profiles (the planes systems) with the tactical part - what you'd choose, why you'd do it, how you'd deliver those bombs in different profiles/against different targets...there's no information, instruction on how to utilise your plane in a tactical setting...

 

 

But then taking a step back DCS puts far more effort into the systems simulations side than it does into the combat simulation part as a whole...

 

First of all, who said you need to master all of those things before starting with BVR?

 

 

Hehe - I started with Falcon 4...so every plane i've learned subsequently I've (by force of habit) followed the same curiculum as the original Falcon 4 manual!!!

Edited July 16, 2020 by jasonbirder

[PL_Harpoon]

Frankly speaking I don't understand why having an internal interactive tutorial is better than a good YT video (again "good YT video") followed by practice on a custom made mission.

"custom made mission" - if you're new to the sim, the Mission Editor is even more intimidating than flying the planes ;)

 

 

As for why a tutorial is better that a video, I can compare my learning experience of the Tomcat vs the Harrier. The former took me months to get where I'm now, and even then there's a lot of things I haven't even tried. The only thing that keeps me back to it is the aircraft itself which is amazing.

The Harrier on the other hand has excellent tutorials covering everything, from cockpit familiarization, basic procedures, aerobatics to various weapon employments. Not only I felt competent in it after less than month it was all a much more pleasurable experience.

 

 

 

In 1989, when I stated my virtual pilot career with F-16 Combat Pilot on my C64, YT was not around and everything I got to learn was the manual and a lot of "lesson learned" being shot down by SAM or fighters (and consider that game load time was around 10 min!!)... and I did it! After some time of patient practicing I was able to t/o hit my target and land safely.

 

 

Of course it can be done "the old way" but it reminds me of old man saying "There's no need for a car. In my age we used to walk 2hr every day to work and we could make it!".

[SharpeXB]

Yeah, I wonder why they have instructors IRL. It's all in the manuals and there's tons of videos of real life landings. That should obviously be enough...

If you can find a personal instructor for DCS go for it. There are training servers where this type of activity occurs. The idea of creating an AI instructor within the game itself is just not feasible though. Big difference between DCS and real life. You can crash here and it’s ok.

[PL_Harpoon]

The idea of creating an AI instructor within the game itself is just not feasible though.

 

 

I think that's where we disagree. A properly made interactive tutorial is just like an AI instructor. It's not as good as the real one, and it may not teach you everything but it's way better than not having anything at all.

 

 

Another thing, with interactive tutorials you memorize things by doing them. With manuals and even videos you need to memorize first and repeat in practice later. It's been proven a long time ago that the first method is generally much more effective than the second one.

[SharpeXB]

It just plain isnt all in there. I have given countless examples already. Keep ignoring them. Ill give you one more. Please tell me which training mission or what page of what manual properly explains comms in DCS, in particular for the F14?

 

How do you reckon a newbie flying a mission or campaign that has easy comms disabled figures out that pressing the comms menu binding that the training video told him about, brings up a menu that doesnt do anything? How do you reckon he will find out he need to press the MIC button to bring up a menu, that he has to press the correct mic button for the correct radio for which he should have set the correct frequency before he can use that menu. That he may need to use jester to set that frequency. That he may need to consult his kneeboard to find the frequency. Its not in the F14 manual. Its not explained to any reasonable degree in the DCS manual. GR have a 20 minute video on just using the F14 radio's and comms menu without which I would probably never have figured out why that bloody awacs or tanker or atc wasnt responding to my calls.

Again, realize that the F-14 is in Early Access. The chapter on communication is probably not in the manual yet. Now that you mention it, that chapter isn’t in the F-18 manual either. The completed aircraft have a chapter detailing what all the comms keys do.

 

The operation of the radios was self explanatory to me when I learned the A-10C (as a complete newbie) The radio A switch operates Radio A and Radio B operates radio B etc.

 

And yes there’s YouTube with tons of tutorials on this stuff. And there’s this forum, all you have to do is ask. That’s why it’s here.

 

To his credit, chuck does cover many of the things I mentioned and that the official manuals dont, and he doesnt go in ridiculous details about things a newbie wont care yet. ED would be wise to make it a default manual and point buyers to that.

Chucks Guides are nice indeed. Are they translated into all the languages needed for official manuals? I don’t suppose they are. So they aren’t a substitute for the official ones.

 

The other most recent example I listed, notching missiles, isnt covered. Should that be in that sort of manual? Maybe not. Its not F14 specific. But newbies are going to get shot at and someone must teach them things like that.

The Flaming Cliffs manuals do have a basic explanation of air combat tactics and missiles, radar behavior etc. This is a huge subject though and beyond the real of what’s achievable to cover in the sim. There are many books and videos on the subject as well as this forum. This is one area that you really need to plunge into yourself and learn.

 

I think that's where we disagree. A properly made interactive tutorial is just like an AI instructor.

DCS already has interactive tutorials. The OP original suggestion was for some sort of “virtual buddy” to help you learn. That’s really not feasible. Could there be more interactive tutorials? Sure. Again keep in mind that many of these modules are in Early Access.

 

 

This thread isn’t helping. It’s only the run-on complaints of a single person who tries to make DCS appear much more formidable than it really is.

Edited July 16, 2020 by SharpeXB

[Yuriks]

Fully agree with Vertigo72. Another things to improve - controls set up. It takes quite an effort to map all the controls, and then transferring them to another plane or pc.

 

At the same time, 90% of simmers, noobs in particular, use less a dozen of sticks and throttles. Making default profiles with simple in game selection would greatly reduce entry barrier

[SharpeXB]

Fully agree with Vertigo72. Another things to improve - controls set up. It takes quite an effort to map all the controls, and then transferring them to another plane or pc.

 

At the same time, 90% of simmers, noobs in particular, use less a dozen of sticks and throttles. Making default profiles with simple in game selection would greatly reduce entry barrier

Why is control mapping difficult? Anyone familiar with PC gaming knows how to do this. And again DCS is much better than other flight sims in this regard. Some still use a generic Windows ID# which can actually change your assignments, that's a horrible pain. DCS recognizes your devices by individual type, that's a good thing. The menu will show you your assignments when you press the buttons. Again this is a huge benefit some other sims don't do. You can add any key or button as a modifier, again very good thing. The menu allows individual axis tuning

Since every aircraft is different it really isn't possible to have a default profile and DCS aircraft are more varied and complex than in any other flight sim. And it's actually beneficial to set up individual curves and responses for each aircraft.

DCS is a complex sim with the potential to do a great variety of functions in this menu. It will necessarily be more complex than something for a typical PC game.

 

And again. This is all explained in the manual

[SmirkingGerbil]

Fully agree with Vertigo72. Another things to improve - controls set up. It takes quite an effort to map all the controls, and then transferring them to another plane or pc.

 

At the same time, 90% of simmers, noobs in particular, use less a dozen of sticks and throttles. Making default profiles with simple in game selection would greatly reduce entry barrier

 

As mentioned, button presses, with a Controller column selected, will show you what buttons are mapped, either by default, or using changes setup by the user. So if you forget, easy to find with button push. Easy to map. Clear the entry, push button, mapped.

 

Also, the controls setup incorporates a "Search" drop down in the top menu bar where you select different Modules and modes for modules, i.e. P-47-D Sim or Game.

 

Using the "Search" function for any module, greatly eases finding current mappings, or functions you are thinking about mapping. You can search on "Rudder" or "Toggle" or "Gun" etc. to narrow down what you are trying to find and map. DCS has more in depth mapping aids than other sims I have flown.

[Yuriks]

When you get in a real cockpit you don't get to remap hook stick into gears and pedals into ailerons :pilotfly: you just learn where they are and what they do.

 

Mapping flexibility is great for experienced pilot but something that scares a noob :smilewink:

[PL_Harpoon]

DCS already has interactive tutorials. The OP original suggestion was for some sort of “virtual buddy” to help you learn. That’s really not feasible. Could there be more interactive tutorials? Sure. Again keep in mind that many of these modules are in Early Access.

 

 

Ok, I found the willpower to read through the entire OP and I agree with you, this "virtual buddy" is not feasible. Also, the fact that some aircraft are still in EA is a valid argument.

 

 

 

My point is that with few exceptions the current tutorials are not good enough. In my opinion every aspect of an aircraft should be included in an interactive tutorial. Even passive things like cockpit familiarization is much more enjoyable and easier to learn in the form of a tutorial mission.

 

 

 

 

This thread isn’t helping. It’s only the run-on complaints of a single person who tries to make DCS appear much more formidable than it really is.

I think it is. So what if Vertigo's initial idea isn't feasible. Threads like this allows us to discuss other solutions.

 

I started this thread precisely to discuss how we can provide new pilots with better training wheels, as I would like to see more people eventually learn to ride this bike.

[SharpeXB]

When you get in a real cockpit you don't get to remap hook stick into gears and pedals into ailerons :pilotfly: you just learn where they are and what they do.

 

Mapping flexibility is great for experienced pilot but something that scares a noob :smilewink:

You know that the full fidelity modules have mouse interactive cockpits, right? Just click on what you need to operate.

 

If control mapping is too much for somebody they should just stick with consoles.

[randomTOTEN]

With manuals and even videos you need to memorize first and repeat in practice later.

It's 2020 and it's sad that nobody has shown you how to properly use a manual in a flight simulator. I know you have multiple electronic devices, or at least a functioning printer and A4 paper.

Nobody "memorizes how to fly the airplane by reading the manual." That's dumb, and a lie you guys tell yourself to scare you away from using the excellent manuals.

 

I've learned probably the last 4 modules using mostly the manuals, and how you really do it is to have the manual and simulators available at the same time. This allows you to learn properly the first time. Because you read the steps at your own pace, you set the pace of the lesson.

 

Here is the lie you believe: Read>Learn>Do.

Here is the truth of the matter: Read>Do>Learn.

Edited July 16, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[randomTOTEN]

When you get in a real cockpit you don't get to remap hook stick into gears and pedals into ailerons :pilotfly: you just learn where they are and what they do.

In a real cockpit the pilot doesn't show up with his favorite joystick he chose at the pilot shop, and plug it into the jet with USB.

 

Modern aircraft actually have calibration screens for maintenance, which actually replicate some of the interfaces we have in DCS. Because in reality many modern controls are just a form of joystick, even if it's bolted to the aircraft and given a part number.

[Vertigo72]

Why is control mapping difficult?

 

Because a newbie doesnt know which of the 4567487 mappings in the list are really important and which ones arent. He doesnt understand 99.9% of them.

 

It also doesnt exactly help when force feedback sticks trim forces are reversed by default. Sure, thats a probably more a bug than anything else, but it seems to be a really old one.

 

Since every aircraft is different it really isn't possible to have a default profile

 

And yet chuck's guides do exactly that: provide a simple template of the things he thinks are most useful. Its a great starting point. Why couldnt you include something like that in the game?