Tutorial on how to locate ground targets

[melchionda]

Folks, can anyone recommend a good tutorial on how to spot ground targets based on other pilots spotting and calling out the ground targets? If a JTAC sends me the target it's pretty straight forward.. but if a pilot in the flight calls out a target... ie- "Mudspike 11 o'clock for 15!" How do I locate that? Right now the only way to find these targets is to leave the "Dots" on in the options so you can see the little red dots where the enemy is. I'd like to be able to fly with out that. I'm guessing that if all of the planes are on the same heading you can very roughly approximate a direction on the TAD and then using the concentric range rings on the TAD approximate where it might be and then make a SPI there and then start searching around with the TGP? (I'm just guessing here so let me know if there is a source for learning the right technique?).

[Taz1004]

Dots meaning labels... if you consider that cheating, then wingman spotting that efficiently can also be considered cheating.

 

In my opinion, the more realistic way is to spot them before the mission. Find your primary targets and SAM's in the mission planner. Then put way points on them.

[eaglecash867]

Folks, can anyone recommend a good tutorial on how to spot ground targets based on other pilots spotting and calling out the ground targets? If a JTAC sends me the target it's pretty straight forward.. but if a pilot in the flight calls out a target... ie- "Mudspike 11 o'clock for 15!" How do I locate that? Right now the only way to find these targets is to leave the "Dots" on in the options so you can see the little red dots where the enemy is. I'd like to be able to fly with out that. I'm guessing that if all of the planes are on the same heading you can very roughly approximate a direction on the TAD and then using the concentric range rings on the TAD approximate where it might be and then make a SPI there and then start searching around with the TGP? (I'm just guessing here so let me know if there is a source for learning the right technique?).

 

Mudspike? That's a ground radar being picked up by the other pilot's RWR. Is your RWR turned on? Can you see the emitter he's talking about on it? In general though, if a pilot in your flight calls out "Mudspike", you will want to stay as far away from that area as you can unless your mission is to take out a radar or SAM site. Mudspike is bad. ;)

 

If you want to find the mudspike though, put the emitter at the 12 o'clock position on your RWR and just fly toward it. When he lights you up and shoots at you, you'll physically see the missile launch, and there's your target. Killing it before it kills you, on the other hand. That's another story.

Edited July 9, 2020 by eaglecash867

[melchionda]

Mudspike? That's a ground radar being picked up by the other pilot's RWR. Is your RWR turned on? Can you see the emitter he's talking about on it? In general though, if a pilot in your flight calls out "Mudspike", you will want to stay as far away from that area as you can unless your mission is to take out a radar or SAM site. Mudspike is bad. ;)

 

If you want to find the mudspike though, put the emitter at the 12 o'clock position on your RWR and just fly toward it. When he lights you up and shoots at you, you'll physically see the missile launch, and there's your target. Killing it before it kills you, on the other hand. That's another story.

 

I was just using mudspike as an example. But my point would be applicable for all ground targets. Regarding the RWR, yes, I definitely have the RWR working and I use it but its a pretty small and basic UI, not sure how you can get accurate range off of that. For me it just gives a general approximation of what's out there and were it might be. What I'm really looking for is a way to get the kind of accuracy that you can actually find the target and create a markpoint or SPI.

[melchionda]

Dots meaning labels... if you consider that cheating, then wingman spotting that efficiently can also be considered cheating.

 

In my opinion, the more realistic way is to spot them before the mission. Find your primary targets and SAM's in the mission planner. Then put way points on them.

 

That makes sense in that my assumption would be that before you go out to the ramp and get in your A10 you probably attend some sort of briefing where they tell you whats out there and potentially where it might be.

[eaglecash867]

I was just using mudspike as an example. But my point would be applicable for all ground targets. Regarding the RWR, yes, I definitely have the RWR working and I use it but its a pretty small and basic UI, not sure how you can get accurate range off of that. For me it just gives a general approximation of what's out there and were it might be. What I'm really looking for is a way to get the kind of accuracy that you can actually find the target and create a markpoint or SPI.

 

True. The RWR is only capable of estimating range based on signal strength, so the other pilots definitely seem to have a supernatural ability.

 

What I have done to kill other ground targets is pretty much in-line with what Taz said, even with mobile targets. You set waypoints during mission planning which gets you close, then you can hang at distance and altitude to slew your TGP to each of those waypoints and firm up the accuracy by locking and identifying the targets, ranging with the laser, and creating mark points. After that you can start hitting them one by one.

 

The Persian Gulf Strike mission is an excellent mission for practicing the procedures for doing that if you have the Persian Gulf map. It gives you lots of mobile and stationary targets, and they're all in a relatively confined area on an island, which makes it easier to get comfortable with picking out real targets from other ground objects without being too overwhelmed by the sheer size of your search area.

[Emmy]

The Hog is meant to be flown as much “Head Up” as possible.

 

Looking outside at prominent terrain features, towns, rivers, roads, bridges, smoke from wrecks, etc. is the best way to build a mental picture of where you are.

 

Key Mark Points on the TAD are good for quick reference (and kicking your TAD to EXP Mode so it stays North Up is also handy. Easy to get a helmet fire if your AO continuously spins in a circle.)

 

Remember that IRL, the A-10 really never works alone. Aside from the (rare) pre-planned strike, you should be working with additional air assets and/or eyes on the ground to help ID targets and set up attack patterns.

 

Areas of heavy SAM activity are not the best for good Hog Ops (and neither is anything short of Air Superiority.)

[Fri13]

Spotting is done visually, you try to search patterns like tracks in snow, sands or any terrain that would be easily visible by unskilled enemy, or enemy that doesn't have time to hide tracks. There literally are done many things to hide those, like column where couple last ones drag behind them a trees or similar to hide tracks.

 

All units are trained to conceal themselves, that is part of basic training at least in Western militaries. They know how to brake shapes, how to blend in surroundings, how to avoid creating shadows and especially how to minimize thermal signature as well motion.

 

A well trained military is visually almost impossible to be spotted from the air further than 500-1500 meters. So to do visually spotting, one needs to go low, in range of self-defense capabilities of targets.

 

Nothing of this kind is simulated in DCS. The ground units are really easily spotted as long they are not blocked by something, like be inside forest, behind building, or next to similar objects that creates a pattern that you can't separate from others.

 

The spotting is done by other troops than pilots itself really. So ground units, especially recon, and recon flights are responsible to find where troops locations are. Assembly positions are usually easier to spot, and from there the units doctrine is usually known so it can be estimated that where they would move, what they try to defend or where they try to attack. So you build up a assumed locations and you send patrols to search enemies.

 

It is all about Combined Arms, where ground troops are responsible for majority of the success of missions, your tasks as pilot is to support them.

 

What comes to ways how to guide someone to area of enemy visually, it is fairly easy really.

 

You take a land mark that you designate, like easily spotted unique cliff, lake, city etc. From there you build a map, ie "the town has a main road splitting it to East and West sides". From there you side it more accurately, "East side of the town, is large blue factory hall callsign "Blue factory", from there starts a dirt road that leads North-East two kilometers, callsign "NE-road"" and then you define targets better, "End of the dirt road, to south by 1 kilometer there is a opening in edge of forest callsign "C-opener", from that position two hundred meters to south there is enemy observation post. You can see glare from that position.

 

That is how you do it visually. But, if you have a map, it is far easier. You get coordinates or simply direction and distance. This is why the map reading skills and access to map, ruler and pen are critical as the radio. As any patrol can call you over radio and give you angles and ranges to enemy, without revealing their own positions. Like "Enemy resupply center at 3.7 km at 38° from last building north of the town "Zirah".

 

Now you literally open map, you place compass to it with 38° angle and you range 3.7 km from it.

 

What the AI does is just crazy cheating, inaccurate information and then just causing more troubles than help.

[mastersetter]

Dots meaning labels... if you consider that cheating, then wingman spotting that efficiently can also be considered cheating.

 

In my opinion, the more realistic way is to spot them before the mission. Find your primary targets and SAM's in the mission planner. Then put way points on them.

 

Thats pretty much what you do in bms, place pre planned threat rings over targets etc and you can see them on the hsi. Think of it as satelite intel, and away you go.

[melchionda]

Spotting is done visually, you try to search patterns like tracks in snow, sands or any terrain that would be easily visible by unskilled enemy, or enemy that doesn't have time to hide tracks. There literally are done many things to hide those, like column where couple last ones drag behind them a trees or similar to hide tracks.

 

All units are trained to conceal themselves, that is part of basic training at least in Western militaries. They know how to brake shapes, how to blend in surroundings, how to avoid creating shadows and especially how to minimize thermal signature as well motion.

 

A well trained military is visually almost impossible to be spotted from the air further than 500-1500 meters. So to do visually spotting, one needs to go low, in range of self-defense capabilities of targets.

 

Nothing of this kind is simulated in DCS. The ground units are really easily spotted as long they are not blocked by something, like be inside forest, behind building, or next to similar objects that creates a pattern that you can't separate from others.

 

The spotting is done by other troops than pilots itself really. So ground units, especially recon, and recon flights are responsible to find where troops locations are. Assembly positions are usually easier to spot, and from there the units doctrine is usually known so it can be estimated that where they would move, what they try to defend or where they try to attack. So you build up a assumed locations and you send patrols to search enemies.

 

It is all about Combined Arms, where ground troops are responsible for majority of the success of missions, your tasks as pilot is to support them.

 

What comes to ways how to guide someone to area of enemy visually, it is fairly easy really.

 

You take a land mark that you designate, like easily spotted unique cliff, lake, city etc. From there you build a map, ie "the town has a main road splitting it to East and West sides". From there you side it more accurately, "East side of the town, is large blue factory hall callsign "Blue factory", from there starts a dirt road that leads North-East two kilometers, callsign "NE-road"" and then you define targets better, "End of the dirt road, to south by 1 kilometer there is a opening in edge of forest callsign "C-opener", from that position two hundred meters to south there is enemy observation post. You can see glare from that position.

 

That is how you do it visually. But, if you have a map, it is far easier. You get coordinates or simply direction and distance. This is why the map reading skills and access to map, ruler and pen are critical as the radio. As any patrol can call you over radio and give you angles and ranges to enemy, without revealing their own positions. Like "Enemy resupply center at 3.7 km at 38° from last building north of the town "Zirah".

 

Now you literally open map, you place compass to it with 38° angle and you range 3.7 km from it.

 

What the AI does is just crazy cheating, inaccurate information and then just causing more troubles than help.

 

^This is really awesome info; ... Thanks! I want my flying to be as real as possible so this is good to know.

 

so my question about the AI calling out angles and ranges... do you think they are calling it out from their position? (That was the heart of my original question.) It seems to me that unless you know the origin point of the angle and range info, then the info is useless right?

[melchionda]

Thats pretty much what you do in bms, place pre planned threat rings over targets etc and you can see them on the hsi. Think of it as satelite intel, and away you go.

 

What is "bms"?

[Taz1004]

What is "bms"?

 

I may be wrong but I think he's referring to Falcon BMS. Another sim.

 

And regarding your original question, I am pretty sure they're calling it out from the wingman's alignment. Which to me is useless. I just use the wingman's callout as "Oh it's out there". Never used it to point myself to the target. Actually found it annoying when he calls out 8 armor targets in a row.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Taz1004