DCS SA-11 BUK – Hollywood guidance can’t be true.

[GazAce]

Hi all,

 

 

 

Some time ago I watched Mover reacting to a movie Behind Enemy Lines. He explained that missile can’t chase the plane like they did in the movie.

 

Well, if that is true, then it seems SA-11 BUK guidance is wrong.

 

 

 

Watch this short clip, it shows how this SAM follows me in real Hollywood style!

 

 

[Gierasimov]

Interesting

 

I AM SHOCKED!

[ZHeN]

you might wanna find out first what radar sams are ? nice flares vs radar sam, btw

and you might also wanna find out what type of sam was in the movie ?

[BIGNEWY]

Hi GazAce

 

for a bug report we would need a track replay showing it happen so we can take a good look at the data.

 

Please attach it if you hove it.

 

thank you

[GazAce]

Hi GazAce

 

for a bug report we would need a track replay showing it happen so we can take a good look at the data.

 

Please attach it if you hove it.

 

thank you

 

Hi BIGNEWY, I had a Track but the mission was near 2 hours long and when I replayed the Track, my Jet crashed 15 mins into the mission so I never bothered keeping it but then when I played back my recording, it wasn't until then that I realised what had happened. Btw I was dropping chaff and flares.

[ZHeN]

the thing is, there's no bug

[GazAce]

the thing is, there's no bug

 

You obviously don't understand the mechanics & science of a BUK missile

:)

[ZHeN]

I heard soviet science is scientific much!

[feefifofum]

You barely maneuvered, and very slowly deployed an ineffective countermeasure (flare) at what would have been an ineffective relative aspect to the launcher, even if you were deploying appropriate countermeasures (chaff.)

 

Sorry, bud, you're just not quite right about how these things work. The missile is quite capable of adjusting its course once fired, especially in response to very mild manuevering at altitude such as what I saw in your video. You are misunderstanding Mr. Lemoine's point regarding the film. Rather than try to write a novel, I'll simply suggest a little more research on the system. :thumbup:

[Gierasimov]

So according to experts here, SAM does not fly intercept course but rather follow my moves and not depleting energy?

 

Its clearly seen if watched in 4k that it snaps from its course right into invisible path behind the jet and stays there no matter what.

 

However since experts did their research, I would be interested to see real data to prove this is not a bug, since no track can be looked at to prove it is a bug.

[ZHeN]

the missile you see in the video is trashed, he got hit by another one

[Fri13]

So according to experts here, SAM does not fly intercept course but rather follow my moves and not depleting energy?

 

If the missile is behind you, then it will intercept you by following you.

 

However since experts did their research, I would be interested to see real data to prove this is not a bug, since no track can be looked at to prove it is a bug.

 

Why do you think that missile that is chasing the target, can not follow it as long it has energy to reach target and lift to make turns?

 

What a C.W.Lemon talked about was that the missiles does not perform 180 degree turns after losing the target, and have their rocket motors burning for whole chase period.

 

Like if the missile flies past you, then it typically means that missile will self-destruct itself by trying to damage you, or if it doesn't know it has flown past you, it will keep flying until other requirements are met.

 

But some missiles can perform 180 degree turns and come after you. Typically those requires a datalink or other information that would allow them to find target.

 

Example:

 

SPTZPbY91jc

 

How is that possible?

 

R-73 has a high gimbal rate and axis, at the launch the missile is tracking target and generating trajectory for it. The missile knows it missed target so it keeps turning as prediction where target will be, finds it again and goes after it.

 

Now it is a another discussion that what the R-73 logic should do in such a scenario, but point is just that missile can come after you.

 

Here is example the IRIS-T:

 

 

Because there is no track (is there even a Tacview file?), it is impossible to say what were the missile parameters and behavior.

 

But by the video, it looks completely possible.

[Rick50]

the missile you see in the video is trashed, he got hit by another one

 

It does seem like that, saw a missile fly by with no effect off to oblivion, then a second missile arrives and impacts the player.

[Fri13]

It does seem like that, saw a missile fly by with no effect off to oblivion, then a second missile arrives and impacts the player.

 

I can't confirm that now from the mobile phone, but that is possibility and if two have seen that, then it must be so.

[GazAce]

the thing is, there's no bug

 

ZHeN, I apologise for making that comment to you before, it was uncalled for, I felt a tad provoked that's all. And hey man I was basically only following that Mover dudes lead on the subject. Peace, out :thumbup:

[feefifofum]

It does indeed fly an intercept course, but that intercept course is updated as you maneuver by the tracking radar. The missile is able to steer in-flight to intercept your new position unless you maneuver aggressively enough to place yourself outside of its envelope, or defeat the tracking system. The relatively slow, lazy zig zag you can see in that video isn't going to displace that intercept point enough to run the missile out of energy.

Edited July 24, 2020 by feefifofum

[GazAce]

It does indeed fly an intercept course, but that intercept course is updated as you maneuver by the tracking radar. The missile is able to steer in-flight to intercept your new position unless you maneuver aggressively enough to place yourself outside of its envelope, or defeat the tracking system. The relatively slow, lazy zig zag you can see in that video isn't going to displace that intercept point enough to run the missile out of energy.

 

Ok, I'll buy that & I understand more now. thanks for the input Fee

:thumbup:

[ZHeN]

also pay attention to what Mover says about the movie: he sees SA-13 there

SA-13 is a short range IR missile, which can't reach big altitudes and ranges like the powerful SA-11, it just lacks the juice for it

 

these are completely two different types of SAMs

if it was SA-11 in the movie, Mover would've said different thing

SA-11 is way more dangerous

[Rick50]

I can't confirm that now from the mobile phone, but that is possibility and if two have seen that, then it must be so.

 

No no!! Don't just accept what we claim we saw, we just have a lower res youtube... you need to look close and maybe slow motion with the original video file to have a better idea!

 

I'm just saying I THINK it was a second missile that hit you, after the first missed you. The second one arrived only one or two seconds after the first, probably fired right after the first.

[GazAce]

No no!! Don't just accept what we claim we saw, we just have a lower res youtube... you need to look close and maybe slow motion with the original video file to have a better idea!

 

I'm just saying I THINK it was a second missile that hit you, after the first missed you. The second one arrived only one or two seconds after the first, probably fired right after the first.

 

Interesting, I'm watching at home in 2160 & actually did view in slow mo but I'll recheck again at a slower speed & never thought about a second missile. Overall tho, I'm kinda wishing I never started kickin this can down the road in the first place :noexpression:

[GazAce]

also pay attention to what Mover says about the movie: he sees SA-13 there

SA-13 is a short range IR missile, which can't reach big altitudes and ranges like the powerful SA-11, it just lacks the juice for it

 

these are completely two different types of SAMs

if it was SA-11 in the movie, Mover would've said different thing

SA-11 is way more dangerous

 

Ok thanks, I must've missed that. It make sense, I know Strela is way less dangerous. I been taken out by so many I know them on a first name basis lol

[pepin1234]

Can you make the video with a Tacview file? Otherwise we can also think a second missile hit you. We don’t have way to know that with your video

Edited July 25, 2020 by pepin1234

[GazAce]

Can you make the video with a Tacview file? Otherwise we can also think a second missile hit you. We don’t have way to know that with your video

 

Not being sarcastic but wouldn't I need Tacview installed prior to flying the mission to capture that ? I don't do MP & don't have TV on my pc

Edited July 25, 2020 by GazAce

[Rick50]

Hmm... watching it again, I'm changing my mind:

 

I don't believe there is a second SAM. I think the manuver of the jet, was done with somewhat mild maneuvers, the missile appeared somewhat in the video, but then disappeared from view... rather than go well past the jet, I think after it was no longer visible on video, it turned to intercept your new manuver... and loosing a huge amount of energy and speed.

 

Now it's trying to intercept you, only slightly faster than you are going... and seconds later it finally catches up and kaboom. Same missile, but after your first maneuvers, having very little advantage.

 

Now, if after your first maneuver, you'd have done a powerdive, full AB, maybe you could have depleted it's energy even more, extended some distance away, and ended up with far more energy than the now useless missile? Or maybe try notching?

[pepin1234]

Not being sarcastic but wouldn't I need Tacview installed prior to flying the mission to capture that ? I don't do MP & don't have TV on my pc

 

My friend Tacview can be used with whatever goal you have in your mind. The most important is the deep analysis in a combat or flight.

 

Install Tacview, run the track, open the Tacview generated after replay the track, see every detail you need analyze.