R-77 question

[GGTharos]

Based to CFD's, the AIM-120-5 has max effective range only 90 km.

 

If laying those findings as ballistic/flight trajectories on that R-77 image, we get this:

 

... we get another apples to oranges comparison.

[TotenDead]

R-27P/EP, R-77P, R-77-1, Kh-29TD...

 

Из всего что ты перечислил в РФ на вооружении состоит только Р-77-1

Может быть Х-29ТД, за нее не ручаюсь, не интересовался УРВП

[Flаnker]

Из всего что ты перечислил в РФ на вооружении состоит только Р-77-1

Все ракеты прописаны в документации к ЛА. Р-27ЭП даже на фотографиях были. И есть 100% сведения что Су-35 ими стрелял в Ахтубинске.

 

---All missiles are spelled out in the aircraft documentation. R-27EP were even in the photographs. And there is 100% information that the Su-35 fired them in Akhtubinsk.

 

Может быть Х-29ТД, за нее не ручаюсь, не интересовался УРВП

 

--There was a video of how their Su30SM was used.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Flаnker

[GGTharos]

Where is this information? So far Chizh says there's no evidence of R-27P/EP being in inventory.

[Flаnker]

Where is this information? So far Chizh says there's no evidence of R-27P/EP being in inventory.

 

It is not true.

 

The rocket is spelled out in the aircraft documentation. There is exact information that the Su-35 used them in Akhutbinsk

 

Поверьте на слово, в Ахтубе Су-35С применяли следующее оружие: Р-73, "Изделие 750", Р-27Т. Р-27П, Р-77, Х-29Т, Х-31А, Х-59М2, КАБ-500Кр, КАБ-500ОД, КАБ-1500Кр, а также НАРы и свободнопадающие бомбы.

 

http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/6307-su-35-istoriya-serii-11/#post129824

 

Su-34 with R-27P

 

[TotenDead]

It is not true.

There is exact information

 

Поверьте на слово

 

Ну...

 

Су-34 все же с какого-то показного мероприятия

[ZHeN]

это строевая часть, морозовск шоле

 

но да, праздник какой-то

[Fri13]

... we get another apples to oranges comparison.

 

And if you would read what is stated, you would have not needed to be nasty...

As you very well know you can compare apples and oranges, but you can't compare apes and oranges....

Edited July 31, 2020 by Fri13

[Flаnker]

Ну...

Автор сообщения -бывший работник КНААЗ. Выкладывал информацию о испытаниях самолётов. Его посадили в тюрьму за разглашения государственной тайны.

Су-34 все же с какого-то показного мероприятия

это строевая часть, морозовск шоле

но да, праздник какой-то

 

День открытых дверей в Воронеже - но часть вполне себе обычная.

[GGTharos]

It is not true.

 

The rocket is spelled out in the aircraft documentation.

 

Where?

 

There is exact information that the Su-35 used them in Akhutbinsk

 

So maybe, possibly, it was flight-tested for some purpose. That's also meaningless, AGM-65s were flight-tested on AH-64s. They're not used, and at least there is no doubt that the AGM-65 is in the inventory.

 

Su-34 with R-27P

 

All I see is an R-27R, and you have quotes from some guy who I don't know who he is on some other forum. This is a start but as sources these right now are mostly meaningless to me.

[Fri13]

All I see is an R-27R

 

How do you ID it to be R and not a P?

 

and you have quotes from some guy who I don't know who he is on some other forum. This is a start but as sources these right now are mostly meaningless to me.

 

It is just one evidence more, but if you think it is not sufficient.... It is another question.

[Flаnker]

Where?

 

Различные комплектации АУЦ позволяют работать со

всеми видами ПРГС. АУЦ из состава Л-150-16М обеспечивает управление цифровыми

ПРГС (разработка и изготовление ОАО «ЦКБА») ПРР типа Д7УШ, 77ПМ, 470П.

https://docviewer.yandex.ru/view/19217280/?page=1&*=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%3D%3D&lang=ru

 

"Изделие 470-4" - R-27P. This picture corresponds to the actual aircraft armament.

 

 

So maybe, possibly, it was flight-tested for some purpose. That's also meaningless, AGM-65s were flight-tested on AH-64s. They're not used, and at least there is no doubt that the AGM-65 is in the inventory.

.

The missile has long been tested on the Su-33

All I see is an R-27R

.

This is not an R-27R. Yellow homing head - a distinctive feature of the R-27P

 

 

and you have quotes from some guy who I don't know who he is on some other forum.

The words of an aircraft factory employee (who constantly shared secret information) versus the words of some guy, a game developer from the ED forum?:D

This is a start but as sources these right now are mostly meaningless to me.

 

I am more versed in the sources of information that relate to Russian weapons.

[GGTharos]

"Изделие 470-4" - R-27P. This picture corresponds to the actual aircraft armament.

 

Is the sale of R-77P advertized anywhere?

 

This is not an R-27R. Yellow homing head - a distinctive feature of the R-27P

 

It's a ceramic radome, the color doesn't make a difference. It may simply be un-painted as they do trials on various things. The metal section is also simply painted on the R-27R and probably has the same RF windows. Now, the R-27 is a large missile and I certainly don't doubt that you can put a passive sensor on it and use it as an anti-radiation missile.

 

What I doubt is its actual use IRL anywhere. The Su-27 and MiG-29 that we have in the game don't indicate any use modes for these missiles in their manuals for example, and using such missiles for air to air is very obviously (by historical use of weapons) not preferred.

 

Looking at the diagram itself, the missile can be used only on the same pylons as the R-27T/ET, which brings into question it's shooting interface ... if it's basically a boresight like the AGM-122 using the heat-seeker interface, then it's not a surprise that it isn't in real use. It's a waste of a missile pylon against anything but opportunistic easy shots at sparse GBAD.

 

The words of an aircraft factory employee (who constantly shared secret information) versus the words of some guy, a game developer from the ED forum?:D

 

If he was sharing secret information he'd be in jail, so that's not what's happening. That 'some guy' from ED has more data on the missiles than maybe you realize - sources and software that we won't get our hands on.

 

I am more versed in the sources of information that relate to Russian weapons.

 

You are more versed in Russian sources and they may well be better sources than what I can access, but here's the thing: We have things on the west as well that people want and those things have been tested even, but never actually used. The AGM-65 on Apache was one such real example.

Edited July 31, 2020 by GGTharos

[ZHeN]

you're talking bout flight tests, while Flanker's talking about firing tests

[Flаnker]

Is the sale of R-77P advertized anywhere?

 

As far as I heard R-27P and R-77P were not exported

It's a ceramic radome, the color doesn't make a difference. It may simply be un-painted as they do trials on various things. The metal section is also simply painted on the R-27R and probably has the same RF windows. Now, the R-27 is a large missile and I certainly don't doubt that you can put a passive sensor on it and use it as an anti-radiation missile.

 

All R-27Rs have a white head. Sometimes it turns a little yellow (due to time). The R-27P has a bright yellow head to visually distinguish the type of missile (just like stripes of different colors are applied to the AIM-120)

What I doubt is its actual use IRL anywhere. The Su-27 and MiG-29 that we have in the game don't indicate any use modes for these missiles in their manuals for example, and using such missiles for air to air is very obviously (by historical use of weapons) not preferred.

.

 

The Su-33 can use this missile. It is mainly used to destroy AWACS aircraft and jammers.

 

If he was sharing secret information he'd be in jail, so that's not what's happening.

This man was imprisoned several years ago for divulging sensitive information.

That 'some guy' from ED has more data on the missiles than maybe you realize - sources and software that we won't get our hands on..

There are many mistakes on the part of ED regarding Russian technicians.

 

You are more versed in Russian sources and they may well be better sources than what I can access, but here's the thing: We have things on the west as well that people want and those things have been tested even, but never actually used. The AGM-65 on Apache was one such real example.

Is there an AGM-65 in the Apache manual?

[Fri13]

What I doubt is its actual use IRL anywhere. The Su-27 and MiG-29 that we have in the game don't indicate any use modes for these missiles in their manuals for example, and using such missiles for air to air is very obviously (by historical use of weapons) not preferred.

 

That ain't evidence that R-27P doesn't exist, even in warehouse ready to go when situation calls.

 

Looking at the diagram itself, the missile can be used only on the same pylons as the R-27T/ET, which brings into question it's shooting interface ... if it's basically a boresight like the AGM-122 using the heat-seeker interface, then it's not a surprise that it isn't in real use. It's a waste of a missile pylon against anything but opportunistic easy shots at sparse GBAD.

 

Irrelevant. It is not evidence that R-27P doesn't exist, even in warehouse ready to go when situation calls.

 

If your 99.9% of missions are without R-27P, then it doesn't mean you do not have 0.01% missions where you would use R-27P.

 

If he was sharing secret information he'd be in jail, so that's not what's happening. That 'some guy' from ED has more data on the missiles than maybe you realize - sources and software that we won't get our hands on.

 

So ED doesn't have any sources that anyone can validate by any means.

Otherwise it would be required ED to reveal their sources so that others can validate it.

 

You are more versed in Russian sources and they may well be better sources than what I can access, but here's the thing: We have things on the west as well that people want and those things have been tested even, but never actually used. The AGM-65 on Apache was one such real example.

 

That is not evidence for anything else than AGM-65 on Apache case.

If something is tested, found operating (ie, missile is possible be launched and hits targets positively, instead negatively where they could get it launched but it didn't track anything and just went ballistics) then it should be considered to be implemented in DCS World, because politics and other doctrinal, economical, logistics etc restrictions doesn't matter in simulation, but only in mission designer own hypothetical scenarios.

 

But this thread is already heavily off-topic about the R-77 performance and capabilities compared to R-27...

[Fri13]

The Su-33 can use this missile. It is mainly used to destroy AWACS aircraft and jammers.

 

I have come to understanding that R-27P/EP was designed to be used against fighters, not against AWACS (that are far behind the enemy fighter cover to R-27E even ever reaching one) that are targeted with other kind missiles.

 

The R-27P seeker is told to operate in centimeter band, and if example E-3 works at 10 cm band, it is called already decimeter class.

 

Considering a situation where enemy is jamming you with same frequency as your radar and anyways emitting with the same band, you can effectively get them think a new kind tactics and counter measurements as they don't know is the missile IR or passive radar homing, without launch warning.

 

So usage like a R-27T/ET against fighters is more sensible than even going after AWACS.

[BlackPixxel]

What I doubt is its actual use IRL anywhere. The Su-27 and MiG-29 that we have in the game don't indicate any use modes for these missiles in their manuals for example, and using such missiles for air to air is very obviously (by historical use of weapons) not preferred.

 

Wrong, the missile is part of some manuals.

 

For example it can be used in Phi-0 boresight mode. It is recommended to turn the own radar off to give the missile a clearer picture. It will then behave like a heater fired form Phi-0, it will get a launch authorisation when it finds a radar source.

[BBCRF]

https://www.ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/rakety_klassa_-vozdukh-vozdukh/rakety_r-27p1-_r-27ep1.html

[Seaeagle]

 

It's a ceramic radome, the color doesn't make a difference. It may simply be un-painted as they do trials on various things. The metal section is also simply painted on the R-27R and probably has the same RF windows.

 

Actually I think it does make a difference GGtharos :) . In the photo of the Su-34 that Flanker posted, the homing head on the R-27 does indeed look just like the 9B-1032 passive radar seeker as it has been displayed on various ocassions.

 

Now, the R-27 is a large missile and I certainly don't doubt that you can put a passive sensor on it and use it as an anti-radiation missile.

 

The existence of the missile itself is not in doubt - the doubt was to what extend it is operational....or rather whether the Russian airforce acquired it.

 

What I doubt is its actual use IRL anywhere.

 

Yes.

 

The Su-27 and MiG-29 that we have in the game don't indicate any use modes for these missiles in their manuals for example, and using such missiles for air to air is very obviously (by historical use of weapons) not preferred.

 

There are some vague mention here and there, but only in a rather "primitive" way and even then there needs to be an targeting logic/interface to facilitate its proper use.

 

Looking at the diagram itself, the missile can be used only on the same pylons as the R-27T/ET, which brings into question it's shooting interface ... if it's basically a boresight like the AGM-122 using the heat-seeker interface, then it's not a surprise that it isn't in real use. It's a waste of a missile pylon against anything but opportunistic easy shots at sparse GBAD.

 

Yes what I have seen seems to indicate something like that, but then things have progressed since the baseline Su-27 - with the integration of the L-150 on e.g. the Su-33 and Su-27SM, its much more likely that the weapon could be used effectively since this(the L-150) has built-in interface for controlling ARMs(such as the Kh-31P) in several different modes of operation.....so I don't really see any reason why it couldn't be used for controlling an R-27P/EP as well.

 

What I am trying to say is that I don't think this variant of the R-27 was in the arsenal of the Soviet/Russian airforce previously although it has been advertised for some time by its manufacturers, but that thisi may have changed recently in connection with upgrades/new versions of the Flanker. As with the R-77, there isn't much sense in acquiring a weapon if its incompatible(or its application severely restricted) with the aircraft at hand.

[Seaeagle]

https://www.ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/rakety_klassa_-vozdukh-vozdukh/rakety_r-27p1-_r-27ep1.html

 

Krtv is an "umbrella" organisation for manufacturers and they just list what is on offer - the weapons aren't always fully developed or/and operational with any military force yet.

[Max1mus]

If someone finds public information about R-27P/EP, you need to give it to Chizh on the russian forums. He has said that if they get proper info on how it works, they can model it. A similar thing happened recently with announcement of R-73 RDM2 coming to DCS.

 

It doesnt matter how ineffective the missile is. Its a tool and the opponent will have to consider it. Similarly to how the ET, while easily decoyed, still causes major anxiety, especially with new DCS NATO pilots.

[falcon_120]

If someone finds public information about R-27P/EP, you need to give it to Chizh on the russian forums. He has said that if they get proper info on how it works, they can model it. A similar thing happened recently with announcement of R-73 RDM2 coming to DCS.

 

It doesnt matter how ineffective the missile is. Its a tool and the opponent will have to consider it. Similarly to how the ET, while easily decoyed, still causes major anxiety, especially with new DCS NATO pilots.

Is R73 RDM2 coming to DCS?

I would love to read about that :)

 

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Fri13]

Is R73 RDM2 coming to DCS?

 

Me too...

[dundun92]

Yes we are getting the R-73 RMD-2, heres the quote from Chizh:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4448979&postcount=9121