The reputation, the myth, the legend

[Bearfoot]

Considering what they did with the F-4 and that it only retired last year you could only imagine what they could've done with the Tomcat.

 

The liveries alone, if nothing else, would have been worth it.

[jmarso]

 

When the A-12 was cancelled, either DoD or Big Navy (not sure which - I was a midshipman at the time) took it out on NAVAIR. This was also post-Tailhook, so NAVAIR was a political punching bag.

 

Sounds like we were AD at roughly the same time. (I was a YG-90 P-3 driver) Just out of curiosity, what year group were you?

[Home Fries]

Must be the former RIO in Homefries coming out. :D

NFO yes, but not a RIO.

Sounds like we were AD at roughly the same time. (I was a YG-90 P-3 driver) Just out of curiosity, what year group were you?

 

I was 94, so when I went through flight training they were migrating the A-6 B/Ns to the Prowlers and Tomcats. I wasn't at the top of my class, so my odds-on options would have been VP, VS, or VAW. I went with VP.

[sublime]

The liveries alone, if nothing else, would have been worth it.

 

you guys are killing me. all day Ive been mad about how the f4 is 'permanently on hold' according to rumor. that means dead to me =/

[USAFMTL]

I had RIO on the brain when I should of said NFO Homefries. I was too busy chuckling about the pilot abuse....:D

[captain_dalan]

Good stuff, but a lot of folks are missing that there is a desperate need for long range AA defense (which also entails strike capabilities). That entails organic tanking as well.

 

There is such a thing as a tactical range profile as well. Having to obtain adequate range by flying a bingo profile for most of the flight has negative implications.

 

I could not agree more, unfortunately "they" never ask me for my opinion :disgust:

[Southernbear]

you guys are killing me. all day Ive been mad about how the f4 is 'permanently on hold' according to rumor. that means dead to me =/

 

Not entirely, the F-4 was put on hold till they got the F-16 and FW-190A8 out...then Supercarrier became the priority so focused moved to that. I HOPED they'd go back to it by 2020 Q3-Q4 but it seems ED wants to announce and WHOLE new thing which is looking likely to be due to the description we've been giving and that its meant to be something completely new as well as the Syria video to probably be either an Apache or something like a Mig 29A.

 

However they did say that they've pushed the F-4 back to late 2021/2022 so at least we now have a rough date.

[jmarso]

I was 94, so when I went through flight training they were migrating the A-6 B/Ns to the Prowlers and Tomcats. I wasn't at the top of my class, so my odds-on options would have been VP, VS, or VAW. I went with VP.

 

:thumbup:

 

Well, if you were an east coast guy then we probably chewed some of the same ground- places with odd names like The Brass Nut and the Fly Trap... ;)

[Mule]

Great thread. Really enjoyed reading that and some fascinating insight. Thanks.

[stuart666]

Good stuff, but a lot of folks are missing that there is a desperate need for long range AA defense (which also entails strike capabilities). That entails organic tanking as well.

 

There is such a thing as a tactical range profile as well. Having to obtain adequate range by flying a bingo profile for most of the flight has negative implications.

 

 

I read recently they are trying to figure out how to hang SM2 missiles on F18E's to perform the fleet defence role. Why they are doing that rather than considering using Meteor's (which the RN/RAF is integrating with F35 anyway) is beyond me. NIH I suppose.

 

 

The Navy has actually started design work on what is a new 'fighter', but it sounds like they want something like a long range FA18 than something specifically built for the Fleet Defence role.

 

https://news.usni.org/2020/08/18/navy-quietly-starts-development-of-next-generation-carrier-fighter-plans-call-for-manned-long-range-aircraft

[Home Fries]

:thumbup:

 

Well, if you were an east coast guy then we probably chewed some of the same ground- places with odd names like The Brass Nut and the Fly Trap... ;)

 

I was out of Whidbey Island, so didn't frequent either place. Did two WestPACs, then went to a battle group staff in a strike role. Actually had more fun on the boat than in VP. Maybe we chewed some common ground at the Bird Farm in Fallon.

[jmarso]

I was out of Whidbey Island, so didn't frequent either place. Did two WestPACs, then went to a battle group staff in a strike role. Actually had more fun on the boat than in VP. Maybe we chewed some common ground at the Bird Farm in Fallon.

 

Lived at Fallon a year when I was a kid, but not ever on AD.

 

Two Kef deployments (both split site for the squadron but I was in Kef 90% of the time), followed by a tour as a Primary IP in Corpus, then punched out. Sort of paralleling your experience, I had way more fun in the training command than I did in VP. My goal after that was to go C-9 TAR but the board kept picking me up for P-3 TAR instead, so I wound up dropping my letter and punching after EAOS. The detailer offered me VPU a couple times (thinking I wanted to avoid the boat), but he wasn't hearing me. I think a shooter tour on the big boat would have been fun, but had no desire to go back to VP as a DH or in any other form. No regrets.

[Home Fries]

My only regret was dropping my letter instead of a lateral transfer, but I also had no desire to go back to VP.

[Victory205]

Lived at Fallon a year when I was a kid, but not ever on AD.

 

Two Kef deployments (both split site for the squadron but I was in Kef 90% of the time), followed by a tour as a Primary IP in Corpus, then punched out. Sort of paralleling your experience, I had way more fun in the training command than I did in VP. My goal after that was to go C-9 TAR but the board kept picking me up for P-3 TAR instead, so I wound up dropping my letter and punching after EAOS. The detailer offered me VPU a couple times (thinking I wanted to avoid the boat), but he wasn't hearing me. I think a shooter tour on the big boat would have been fun, but had no desire to go back to VP as a DH or in any other form. No regrets.

 

Iceland is beautiful. My arse is still sore from riding horses there...

 

The VP guys we have at the airline come in two flavors- Happy, decent guys who just want to fly a little and go play golf, and incessant, gloomy, always “getting screwed” whiners. Nothing in between.

 

The attitude in the “Fly Trap” spoke volumes. I stopped in Sigonella to drop off a corrosion bird, elated to get one night off of the ship and a beer, and my RIO and I ended up walking out of the little bar after listing to VP weenies complaining about how difficult their deployment was. We had lost seven guys a month earlier.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Victory205

[Home Fries]

The VP guys we have at the airline come in two flavors- Happy, decent guys who just want to fly a little and go play golf, and incessant, gloomy, always “getting screwed” whiners. Nothing in between.

 

Speaking from experiences 20 years ago, there was definitely a bitterness in the community. I won't go full Freud with reasons why, but I would parallel it to blackshoes I've met. You have guys who embrace the experience as a whole and don't let it get them down, and some who embrace the misery, feed on it, and look for someone else to dump on (i.e. the "I had to do this and so do you" mentality). In other words, some great people and some whom I wouldn't follow from a burning building.

 

Two of the finest officers I ever met were my Battle Group Admiral (a SWO) and one of my VP skippers (two COs removed from the political backstabber I alluded to earlier).

[jmarso]

The attitude in the “Fly Trap” spoke volumes. I stopped in Sigonella to drop off a corrosion bird, elated to get one night off of the ship and a beer, and my RIO and I ended up walking out of the little bar after listing to VP weenies complaining about how difficult their deployment was. We had lost seven guys a month earlier.

 

That's unfortunate. Perspective matters, eh?

 

I got to spend 5 weeks in Sig on my first deployment and freakin' loved it. That was back when Operation Sharp Guard was going on in '94. Things were quiet in Iceland, so we backfilled the Sig squadron with two planes and crews because they had the same on a rotation out of Jeddah. I was hoping we were going to get Sig as a whole squadron for the second deployment, but wound up split site between Kef, Roosey, and Panama. Kef was definitely the sweetest part of that deal, believe it or not.

 

No regrets about the experience, not living on the boat was nice, but in the 90's, post Cold-war, the VP community was dead-ending hard, and the P-8 wasn't even a gleam in anyone's eye yet. (Timing wise, I never would have gotten to fly it anyway.) VP experienced a rebirth after 9-11 in the ISR arena, but that was a couple years after I was already gone. Now ASW is a 'thing' again between China and Russia, and the community is apparently thriving. Glad it survived, but as in most things, timing matters.

 

The VP guys we have at the airline come in two flavors- Happy, decent guys who just want to fly a little and go play golf, and incessant, gloomy, always “getting screwed” whiners. Nothing in between.

 

Any correlation there between the retiree lifers vs the guys who got out early? :p

Edited August 24, 2020 by jmarso

[Victory205]

Retired military guys were often a royal PITA. I had two that I have my employee number to and said, “here, put this on your ‘no fly list’” That only worked for FO’s to Captains, not the other way around. Told them both that if they showed up I’d remove them from the trip. Crappy attitudes and incompetent pilots, I’m sad to say. One a P3 CO, and other a USAF A10 CO. They just didn’t know what was going on, and couldn’t fly worth a shit. Another was the XO of USS Ranger, and he was awful too. Flying was an afterthought to these guys.

 

Too many retired military guys put little or no effort into their flying, but thought that copilot duties were beneath them, especially if their Captain didn’t have a military background. One of the funniest was a USAF full Colonel who was all full of himself. Last leg, I pop down to the cockpit and mention that we were getting a line check from an FAA ACI. He meekly says, “Do you mind flying my leg, Captain?” ;)

 

Most pilots are just fantastic. The ones that love to fly were a joy. I’ll miss them.

[jmarso]

Retired military guys were often a royal PITA. I had two that I have my employee number to and said, “here, put this on your ‘no fly list’” That only worked for FO’s to Captains, not the other way around. Told them both that if they showed up I’d remove them from the trip. Crappy attitudes and incompetent pilots, I’m sad to say. One a P3 CO, and other a USAF A10 CO. They just didn’t know what was going on, and couldn’t fly worth a shit. Another was the XO of USS Ranger, and he was awful too. Flying was an afterthought to these guys.

 

Too many retired military guys put little or no effort into their flying, but thought that copilot duties were beneath them, especially if their Captain didn’t have a military background. One of the funniest was a USAF full Colonel who was all full of himself. Last leg, I pop down to the cockpit and mention that we were getting a line check from an FAA ACI. He meekly says, “Do you mind flying my leg, Captain?” ;)

 

Most pilots are just fantastic. The ones that love to fly were a joy. I’ll miss them.

 

Heh. Preach it! :D

[Home Fries]

No regrets about the experience, not living on the boat was nice, but in the 90's, post Cold-war, the VP community was dead-ending hard, and the P-8 wasn't even a gleam in anyone's eye yet.

 

I can't complain either. Not touching my paycheck on my second deployment helped pay for my BMW when I got back. :thumbup:

 

Still, I did have a lot more fun on the boat. Having a mission rather than grasping for one makes hardships a lot more palatable. When I was in VP the AIP bird was being held out as a carrot for us, but it wasn't very effective as a carrot when we realized that 1) the AIP birds would be mixed in with SUDS birds (and we would need to be proficient in both aircraft), and 2) the AIP systems were still not properly integrated, so it was just more avionics bolted onto the old, tired system.

 

I actually figured I would be designing avionics for a living once I got out because I had the engineering degree and had seen up-close what not to do.

[jmarso]

Having a mission rather than grasping for one makes hardships a lot more palatable.

 

QFT, and true in all walks of life! :thumbup: