Checking to see how much interest in low cost $250 to $350 F16 throttle

[Osita]

Happy to be proven wrong though :))

 

 

Oh, yeah, well just you wait, buddy, just you wait! :megalol:

 

 

All I have for now is the opinion from my principle engineer that it can be done, but I do respect that opinion because he is a former professor of engineering at Chiang Mai University, and he has over 30 years of experience running his own engineering company (now retired from his own business and came to work for us because our project is just too awesome to not be part of it... imagine getting paid to fly simulators, design simulator parts, and build simulators!).

[Lt_Jaeger]

Strangely enough, we are going to be making these (2 seat version). But the cost is >$35,000 per item (not including taxes and shipping), so I don't exactly expect a line at the front door waiting to collect them.

 

 

But you will be welcome to come and play with ours once they are ready!

Great to hear but a tad over my pay grade..... Darn

 

Would love to try one, though.

 

But on a serious note, I would love just the switcholagy for the F-14, since I play exclusively in VR, so it can even look like crap. That's the way I will most probably end up anyway if I ever get myself to try to build one.....

 

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[Osita]

 

Would love to try one, though.

 

 

 

I will make a note to invite you to come and play when our F-14s are ready, but probably by that time you are already promoted to Hptm Jaeger and I won't be able to find you!

[Osita]

 

I think the happy medium should be to make one around the middle, having a throttle arm long enough for switch panels underneath but no so long it inhibits desktop and cockpit usage.

 

 

I just had what I think is a good idea. If you look at the image of the throttle arm, you can see there are 6 imaginary segments representing the entire length of the arm. So what if we make it so the section indicated by the top 3 segments can collapse inside the bottom 3? This way different lengths are possible without needing to have 2 different arms.

[Lt_Jaeger]

I will make a note to invite you to come and play when our F-14s are ready, but probably by that time you are already promoted to Hptm Jaeger and I won't be able to find you!

:)

 

 

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[RogueSqdn]

I just had what I think is a good idea. If you look at the image of the throttle arm, you can see there are 6 imaginary segments representing the entire length of the arm. So what if we make it so the section indicated by the top 3 segments can collapse inside the bottom 3? This way different lengths are possible without needing to have 2 different arms.

 

 

 

If mechanically feasible, sure. But you’d have to also account for the wires to the grip and bundle them in a manner that they’d be protected.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Osita]

If mechanically feasible, sure. But you’d have to also account for the wires to the grip and bundle them in a manner that they’d be protected.

 

 

Noted. Actually we are planning to use sleeved USB cable and connectors because these are both strong and flexible. I have never liked the PS/2 connectors used by TM because they're too delicate (especially on flight stick which can be under considerable torsion in the heat of battle).

 

 

Most likely this https://ainope.com/collections/micro-usb-cable/products/nylon-braided-micro-usb-cable because I really like the brand.

[Mustang25]

If possible, you guys should throw in an extra axis on the throttle. I've found the one on my virpil to be really handy for using it as a zoom axis so I don't have to take my hand off the HOTAS.

 

Either way, I'm really interested to see where this goes! There's definitely a niche for the Viper/single engine throttle and wish you all the best!

[VpR81]

If it will have a CE (Conformiteé Europeé) certifiation, i'm in. Without CE certification electronic devices (yes, also 5V USB devices) are illegal to import, sell and operate in europe and i'm out. Had this issue with WW and not going to risk my shipment beeing confiscated by national customs. People jumping on the hype train sometimes forget, that there are strict rules and regulations for production, selling and operating electronic devices... I know, speaking this out is unpopular, but these laws are a fact of life in developed countries.

[Osita]

If possible, you guys should throw in an extra axis on the throttle. I've found the one on my virpil to be really handy for using it as a zoom axis so I don't have to take my hand off the HOTAS.

 

Either way, I'm really interested to see where this goes! There's definitely a niche for the Viper/single engine throttle and wish you all the best!

 

 

Yes, I understand what you mean. I used the side friction lever on the TM stick to do the same thing. Using this lever for zoom is a bit bouncy sometimes because it's an analog control and the voltage can change slightly giving weird unexpected zoom at inappropriate times!

 

 

Thanks for your comment and suggestion, and yes we will think about whatever design things people have ideas to improve while not losing too much realism. How about this:

 

 

We'll make a flip up tab on some part of the grip (or slide panel or whatever) that has hidden zoom in zoom out buttons (or change their function to whatever you want). Maybe a set of hidden buttons. Using digital buttons instead of an axis lever will prevent that bounciness problem, plus it can be very discreet. You only see them when you need to see them and the rest of the time they are hidden!

[Osita]

If it will have a CE (Conformiteé Europeé) certifiation, i'm in. Without CE certification electronic devices (yes, also 5V USB devices) are illegal to import, sell and operate in europe and i'm out. Had this issue with WW and not going to risk my shipment beeing confiscated by national customs. People jumping on the hype train sometimes forget, that there are strict rules and regulations for production, selling and operating electronic devices... I know, speaking this out is unpopular, but these laws are a fact of life in developed countries.

 

 

Thanks for this information. Can you point me to resources where we can find out the requirements for such certification? Our device does not do anything that could cause harm to anything. I notice my external hard drive has CE on it, but my USB mouse does not. Both work fine, and both made in China, though the HD is an Italian brand.

[Osita]

EDIT

 

I checked the requirements and it is possible to self-certify. It says that for simple devices "which have a minimal risk for their use" the manufacturer can just put a CE sticker on it and it's accepted. I would expect our product to be minimal risk because it doesn't do anything and all the internal components such as the USB cables and microprocessors are likely already CE certified. I am very sorry to hear about the unreasonable seizure of your goods, and this seems to have happened just because the manufacturer did not know they can do this self-certification. Customs agents tend to be aggressively pessimistic in my experience. I think in your situation you just got an inspector who was having a bad day, because common sense would tell them that something like a joystick accessory for a computer is not a high risk item.

[Osita]

Further investigation reveals that the CE logo may only be necessary if the item includes an adaptor to convert voltage (it won't). However our product will be compliant with all the legislative requirements anyway. The only factor of concern is that it's actually illegal to put CE markings on products that don't require certification. So we have to make sure that we do need to certify, which at the moment it looks like we don't.

 

 

85371000 CONTROL, JOYSTICK

 

 

Compliance declaration will be as follows:

 

 

EN 55022:2010/ AC:2011 Class B : Information technology equipment -Radio disturbance characteristic

 

 

EN 55024:2010: Information technology equipment -Immunity characteristics

 

 

 

ESD IEC 61000-4-2:2008

RS IEC 61000-4-3:2006 +A1:2007 +A2:2010

 

 

EFTB IEC 61000-4-4:2012

 

 

Surge IEC 61000-4-5:2005

 

 

Conducted RF IEC 61000-4-6:2008

 

 

Magnetic Field IEC 61000-4-8:2009

 

 

Dip & Interrupt IEC 61000-4-11:2004

 

 

Further, will comply with all ROHS requirements.

 

 

We will make an official declaration of conformity when the product exists.

[VpR81]

No problem, glad this helped you out and that you are looking into it. The CE certification is not only meant for product/user safety. It also guarantees, that the manufactor produces under european standards for envroinment protection. After ordering my WinWing throttle, i had a phonecall with my local customs office (should have done that before ordering). I wanted to ask how taxes are going to be handled. The official told me twice, that every electronic device without CE marking is illegal and will be confiscated. That's all i can say about it. Yes you can self certificate, but if it turns out that your product did not fulfill the CE requirements while having the marking, the manufactor can be charged for everything the device caused. I.e. when it starts burning and people die in the fire (Of course the worst possible case), the manufactor is responcible and will be charged for that. And if the manufactor isn't located in europe and therefore can'T be charged, it is likely that his products will be permanently banned from the europan market. All PC Peripherals i own (escept for the WW Throttle) do have a CE marking and they all need it, that is for sure. I have no idea how your throttles electronics are different to the TM Warthog Throttle or Virpil bases i own, but it is realy important that you are absolutely sure yours don't need one. In general, national customs confiscates each electronic device without marking, even if they don't need. Problem is, that the buyer has to proove this to the customs office wich is very difficult.

 

There are a lot of rumours and fals information about the CE marking online, so make sure your source is reliable. Here is a very reliable source about the CE marking:

 

https://www.tuvsud.com/en/services/product-certification/ce-marking

 

Hope this helps. Wish you all the best for your project!

Edited October 1, 2020 by VpR81

[Osita]

Hope this helps. Wish you all the best for your project!

 

 

Yes, thank you so much! It was VERY helpful, because as I stated earlier, our experience is mostly producing hardware for our service business, so this is not a factor that had already been researched.

 

 

But now I know a lot more about how we can make sure the European authorities are comfortable with the products. Obviously we don't intend to use any harmful materials in the manufacturing process and we don't want people's houses burning down due to bad work.

 

 

We have very experienced people working with us who genuinely care about making a good product. We offer this from a sincere desire to bring something that we believe people will want and that we were planning to eventually make for our own use anyway. The only difference is that if there's enough demand, we'll change the timing of when to make it.

 

 

 

Quality is as important to us as it is to you, because we don't just make something to sell, we make something to use.

[Bob_Bushman]

Hmm.... do you mean that you'd like something where you can disassemble your TM / Siatek / Virpil throttle base and connect the Viper stick?

 

 

That could be possible, but in this case there are some additional factors. The main one being the different shape and mechanism of the real thing (but for some users that's not a big factor). But it also means we can't include the sensor-based method that we intended.

 

 

Plus the controller card inside the TM or Virpil or whatever... it is set up to support certain buttons and switches, in some cases with a very precise number. If the number of buttons and switches we need is not supported by their card, then a lot of fiddling about will be required to get it working.

 

 

We definitely could convert the TM A-10 to F-14 or F-15 in this way though (but then again, so could you with a bit of 3D printing and a lot of stubborn determination). Not sure if there are any licensing restrictions that would make it illegal for us to make the F-14 or F-15 throttle grips for the ThrustMaster base, though. Have to check that. We don't want to annoy anyone.

 

No, no disassembly required, Nopt that I would be unvilling, but I susepct that would be a costly thing for your design team to take into account considering the amount of devices out there.

 

What I would invision was perhaps a simple, throttle grip with a main axis vase in whatever shape you could design to best accommodate your design and cost options.

 

If you can forget about a base with 30+ buttons and take the cost of that into any type of improvement in the grip and the options there I'd make that trade in a heart beat.

Maybe a base plate to conform with the warthog base plate, so it could have that placed underneath, my Virpil throttle uses those same dimensions as well.

 

And you could for those who want it make a separate button box.

 

An additional suggestion.

 

Have you perchance looked to the arcady spacesim group?

They might not be all that sold on an f16 replica on it's own, but I personally play a lot of Elite Dangerous, who is about to get another huge update in a few months, and offer a player base far larger than those who play DCS.

Yes most of those players just use keyboard and mouse, but some, myself included actually bought my Virpil kit because of it, that then brought me to DCS.

 

And a highly ergonomic, grip with a solid axis would be right up the ally for a lot middle aged men like myself remembering their wing commander hay days, it might not be a group of the same mindset as simmers, but they are potential customers with cash ;)

 

Ps: I wrote this in a parking lot on my phone, I'll be looking over speeling when I get to a computer.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Bob_Bushman

[Mustang25]

Yes, I understand what you mean. I used the side friction lever on the TM stick to do the same thing. Using this lever for zoom is a bit bouncy sometimes because it's an analog control and the voltage can change slightly giving weird unexpected zoom at inappropriate times!

 

 

Thanks for your comment and suggestion, and yes we will think about whatever design things people have ideas to improve while not losing too much realism. How about this:

 

 

We'll make a flip up tab on some part of the grip (or slide panel or whatever) that has hidden zoom in zoom out buttons (or change their function to whatever you want). Maybe a set of hidden buttons. Using digital buttons instead of an axis lever will prevent that bounciness problem, plus it can be very discreet. You only see them when you need to see them and the rest of the time they are hidden!

 

Yes, I like the idea of having the axis on the throttle instead of having to take my hand off like the lever on the Warthog.

 

Personally I won't be too bothered if the axis was visible but just in a non-descript/low profile position, I don't mind the tradeoff of extra functionality for the sim over realism.

[Osita]

Yes, I like the idea of having the axis on the throttle instead of having to take my hand off like the lever on the Warthog.

 

Personally I won't be too bothered if the axis was visible but just in a non-descript/low profile position, I don't mind the tradeoff of extra functionality for the sim over realism.

 

 

Thanks for the feedback. We will think about this carefully and see what we can come up with. At the moment I am thinking of something like a slide toggle under the front part that you can push with your thumb to get the zoom. Or we make a modifier button that you can press and it converts one of the existing switches to a zoom switch until you click the modifier off. Wow, there are a lot of possibilities!

[RogueSqdn]

Modifier for the pinky is a better option, since it can apply to modify buttons on your stick as well.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Sokol1_br]

Have you perchance looked to the arcady spacesim group?

Yes most of those players just use keyboard and mouse,

 

Space game crowd create a better solution than "HOTAS".

 

The "HOSAS" - Hands on Stick and Stick, using two sticks instead a stick and throttle, why VKB and VirPil start making left hand sticks.

 

An F-16 or F-something looking throttle will have little appeal for majority of this people.

[Basilone]

I would be thrilled because I'm looking to upgrade my HOTAS in the near future but there are two things I want to see in a new throttle.

 

 

1) Ease of disassembly. My current TWCS throttle is somewhat tedious because they went overkill with the screws, but once you get it open its very straightforward and maintenance friendly. The T16000 it came with is an absolute disaster to maintain, the wires are a mess and I get nervous every time I pull it apart.

 

 

2) Compact size. I've been holding off on getting a Warthog or Hornet throttle because I don't have enough space in my desk area and I'm not prepared to do a full office makeover just to make room for a throttle. The people that want a full size throttle panel already have options, something comparable in size to the Virpil MT50 CM2 would make this an easy sell for those of us that are space limited.

[Osita]

I would be thrilled because I'm looking to upgrade my HOTAS in the near future but there are two things I want to see in a new throttle.

 

 

1) Ease of disassembly. My current TWCS throttle is somewhat tedious because they went overkill with the screws, but once you get it open its very straightforward and maintenance friendly. The T16000 it came with is an absolute disaster to maintain, the wires are a mess and I get nervous every time I pull it apart.

 

 

2) Compact size. I've been holding off on getting a Warthog or Hornet throttle because I don't have enough space in my desk area and I'm not prepared to do a full office makeover just to make room for a throttle. The people that want a full size throttle panel already have options, something comparable in size to the Virpil MT50 CM2 would make this an easy sell for those of us that are space limited.

 

 

Thanks for your comments. I know the main thing we'll be looking to do is to make it easy for everyone, because we have all the same frustrations. If it was already easy to just buy something perfect, we would definitely be buying it instead of taking the much more difficult path.

 

 

Our aims are as follows:

 

 

1. Make it strong and reliable. No crappy weak PS/2 connectors or other nonsense used in other products. We also won't use legacy serial port or parallel port connectors that some manufacturers use for the simple reason that less modern computers support this technology natively. We will probably use micro USB or full USB connectors (both internally and for the connection to the computer), for high strength, high flexibility, and the best compatibility.

 

 

2. Make it easy to modify, maintain, or fix. Well, it probably is not going to break in the first place, but if it does then it's good to know you can fix it without fear of doing more damage.

 

 

3. Make everything as modular as we can. This is related to point 2, but I am a big fan of modularity because it means we can adapt existing products today to cope with new scenarios in the future. If some new aircraft comes out that uses a similar throttle base to the F-16 but a completely different grip, it will be great for everyone if it's really easy to swap the throttle grip without having to remove anything else.

 

 

Also are TM making the F/A-18 throttle now? I agree with you the Virpil throttle is nice and compact with a lot of buttons available. It's lacking in the realism department a bit, but if that's not the most important factor then it should suit the casual simmer's needs.

 

 

As a pit builder myself, having something that at least looks reasonably realistic is important to me, but I fully understand that not everyone has the same goals. We're trying to figure out what the middle ground really is so that the desktop pilots will be happy and the hardcore sim enthusiasts still can create the machine of their dreams.

 

 

Oh, and we'll make a normal version and a cheaper version that is using more plastic and so on. We envision making the throttle grip on the regular version from metal, and using high quality connectors in it even with gold plating for better conductivity and protection against corrosion! And still to make it as affordable for everyone as it is possible to do!

[RogueSqdn]

TM is not making a Hornet throttle as far as anyone publicly knows. A new HOTAS was teased a few years back but has not been revealed.

 

That said, Winwing’s Hornet throttle is the best I’ve ever used.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bob_Bushman]

Space game crowd create a better solution than "HOTAS".

 

The "HOSAS" - Hands on Stick and Stick, using two sticks instead a stick and throttle, why VKB and VirPil start making left hand sticks.

 

An F-16 or F-something looking throttle will have little appeal for majority of this people.

 

I got two virpil stics for just that, but it's not saying you won't want a throttle as well.

twin sticks is great for combat and fine control, but beyond that if you just want to lazily fly around a throttle is the device of choice.

 

And if I had a second or the new virpil throttle with a proper analog slew on it I wouldn't really need the second stick whatsoever.

 

And for flightsims, I honestly find the throttle unit to be more important than the stick itself.

So it's not like dropping it is an option.

[Osita]

It is looking encouraging. We're nearly 70% of the way to the goal of 100 positive votes. I appreciate everyone who has voted, even when they say no, because every opinion helps to guide us to your needs.

 

 

Also the comments are very helpful and all the great suggestions that have been put forward will help us understand what features are most important for you. Obviously we can't please everyone, but if we can make something that makes enough people happy then it's a good result.