Best setup for VKB for helicopters? What is realistic setup/cyclic for helicopters?

[Jamesp1]

I mostly got vkb due to how I thought the damper would provide the best setup for helicopters in DCS.

 

What would be the best setup for a helicopter in DCS (e.g. no springs?) although I have to admit i have never flown a helicopter in real life so I need help here?

 

So... what would be the best setup for a vkb joystick for helicopters, and how would this differ from a real helicopter cyclic? The second part is important as this is the info I don't know (besides force feedback) :-)

[Rick50]

just IMO, think that without the springs, then add the longest extension you can find, should be good. The extension would help to be more precise in your movements, seemingly important for quality hovering control.

 

Then add rudder pedals (either without or remove the centering spring if you can).

 

Then find a "USB parking brake", these are sold for racing simulations and games that feature either "Drift" driving or pro-rally. The most common type can be modified to remove the spring, and add a bit of position holding. These typically cost about maybe $100, and they offer 14-bit resolution for your heli collective. There's a bit of info on this from a couple of people on this board who've built either simple or complex collectives using these "USB brake" as a starting point.

[AW139]

I have thousands and thousands of hours of helicopter time in real life, with close to 3000 hours of that being the Huey family, so I think I can speak on this.

 

I fly mostly planes in DCS, and save most of my helicopter flying for real life. That said, I do occasionally fly the Huey in DCS, so I spent some time messing with my Gunfighter III to try to get it as close to the feel of a real helicopter as possible. This is with the 200mm extension, which I think is critical. With the extension the range of movement is very close to real thing.

 

First thing I tried was no springs, and no dry clutch. Not bad. A little loose compared to real helicopters, and it felt like it needed a bit of friction. I added some clutch, but by the time you add enough to keep the stick from being entirely free, you lose the ability to make very tiny movements with ease. These tiny imperceptible movements are key to hovering. So I backed off the clutch to almost nothing, and added a 10 lb spring to each axis. It wasn't enough to do much, so I stepped up to 20 lb springs. 20 lbs is just enough to keep the cyclic from falling over when not held. This isn't entirely realistic as helicopters don't actually have a self-centering spring, but with the weight of the extension and the weight of your hand, the self centering is almost imperceptible when using it. For me, this gave the closest feel to a real Huey that I could come up with. It's not perfect, but it's actually pretty good.

 

What no hardware outside of commercial-level sims have is Force Trim. In most larger helicopters, force trim is a system that keeps the cyclic in the position you last left it. You can activate the "release" with a button on the stick, and then reposition the stick. When you let go of the button, the stick is now locked in the new position. You can "push through" the force trim springs and move the stick to make a temporary input, but the stick will return to the original position. This system is used because there isn't a true "center" position for the stick in a helicopter, as it changes constantly based on speed, weight, phase of flight, etc. When in use, you can let go of the cyclic and the helicopter with remain more or less stable in flight.

 

As another note, with hydraulically boosted controls found on most helicopter, you do not get any physical feedback from the controls.

[Tanuki44]

It is not always easy to find the right size springs and of good force to balance the stick, I used some little 'sandow' which are easily adjustable.

 

 

But I would like to find a 'relatively' simple solution for locked the stick while being able "push through".

[mbits]

@AW139Thanks! I've been looking for a good explanation of how cyclic works in a real helicopter. I realise this is an old post. I've just bought a VKB EVO. It's not got an extension but it does have springless and dampening. I like it but I've noticed hovering is hard. I'm going to do the opposite of what I instinctively did which was tighten dampening and try what you say about needing it loose without dropping.

Edited May 3, 2022 by mbits

[Rick50]

On 11/27/2020 at 7:31 AM, AW139 said:

What no hardware outside of commercial-level sims have is Force Trim. In most larger helicopters, force trim is a system that keeps the cyclic in the position you last left it. You can activate the "release" with a button on the stick, and then reposition the stick. When you let go of the button, the stick is now locked in the new position.

 

Eh... well I think that some or most (??) of the people using force feedback sticks, like the Microsoft FFB2 can actually do this, but you'd have to talk to them!!

[MAXsenna]

 
Eh... well I think that some or most (??) of the people using force feedback sticks, like the Microsoft FFB2 can actually do this, but you'd have to talk to them!!

This is true. Exactly how it works.
And also for fixed wing, the stick will move when you trim it. (Not in the C-101, because it doesn't in the real one). The F-5 have an option for changing the physical centre, and all the A-10s and FC3 have that displacement by default IIRC.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[mbits]

Hard to find though and not made anymore. Also read as they're so old there are issues with Windows 11.

[Rick50]

True. 

bit off topic, but it's quite a surprise to me that force feedback didn't keep going after MS stopped their Sidewinder FF series... I mean I know there's one or two that are very high quality and very high prices ( like that of a car?), but nothing in the normal "flight stick" market.

[dburne]

8 hours ago, Rick50 said:

True. 

bit off topic, but it's quite a surprise to me that force feedback didn't keep going after MS stopped their Sidewinder FF series... I mean I know there's one or two that are very high quality and very high prices ( like that of a car?), but nothing in the normal "flight stick" market.

Logitech tried with the G940 flight stick but it was a bit of a flop and they have discontinued. You can if inclined still purchase from third party sellers on Amazon for like 1K bucks lol. I would certainly not recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-942-000016-G940-Flight-System/dp/B002KKM5IS

Edited May 5, 2022 by dburne

[Rick50]

 

I think part of the reason I find lack of FF sticks strange, is because with automobile racing simulations, force feedback has grown to absolutely DOMINATE the market. You can spend a few hundred, to a great many thousands, then a beefy frame to keep it all rock solid and sturdy!  But for flight? Oh yea, here's some 20 year old sticks you could buy used, take yer chances!

[mbits]

Until someone does decide to make a decent FF stick for us.  For Helis what do people think is best/most realistic? Albeit obviously partly a personal choice.  Springs and DCS trim methods, or springless with dry clutch holding it "in trim" all the time? It sounds like AW139 thinks it's by using some weak springs and an extension.

I recently got a VKB NXT EVO (extensions not an option) to use with helis, to be springless and the dry clutch holding it where ever I leave it, therefore simulating the force trim maglock sort of?

I'm starting to wonder now if I'd be better off with springs in though and continuing the centre trimming DCS method of pressing force trim, re-centering and having a new "centre".  The reason being is the springless dry clutch is very nice for regular a to b travel, but I'm not sure sure for low level hover/landing, as anything you put in it stays in with no resistance, which is taking some getting used to. If the springs were in I'd be making little "nudge corrections" which perhaps is more realistic like pushing through the magnets?

Edited May 9, 2022 by mbits