Turn rate has tanked with new update

[maxsin72]

 

We intended to make flap jamming more realistic, which is what we did. You cannot go 100 knots over the rated speed with no consequences.

 

But in real life real pilot do it without jamming, and nothing is more realistic then real life. The jamming limit is much higher then the fixed limit, at least 280 knots listening to Grumman engineers

[maxsin72]

 

Both. High overspeeds will likely bend them, too. The NATOPS values are guidelines for safety as well, so not to be taken at face value always. This is why tuning it in with SME support is crucial.

 

Please, i know you are in touch with them, ask to Paco Chierici and to Snort which was speed and g force they were able to pull without jamming flaps. The chart limit is only on the chart just like g limit: f14 does not breaks at 8 G and does not breaks also at 12.5 G, his frame is rated for 13 G even if the limit on the chart is 7.5 g. Please look at this video and look at the full flaps at 5:22

[jaguara5]

 

Please, i know you are in touch with them, ask to Paco Chierici and to Snort which was speed and g force they were able to pull without jamming flaps. The chart limit is only on the chart just like g limit: f14 does not breaks at 8 G and does not breaks also at 12.5 G, his frame is rated for 13 G even if the limit on the chart is 7.5 g. Please look at this video and look at the full flaps at 5:22

 

They must ask also Fereydoon ''Ferry Ali'' -Mazandarani, who flew real war dogfights with the F-14.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comm...re_a_story_by/

According to him, the airframe became bent by 11 degrees due to over g, which damaged the electrical wiring within the plane. As a consequence he was unable to fire his weapons (in combat not in training).

[Hummingbird]

 

Please, i know you are in touch with them, ask to Paco Chierici and to Snort which was speed and g force they were able to pull without jamming flaps. The chart limit is only on the chart just like g limit: f14 does not breaks at 8 G and does not breaks also at 12.5 G, his frame is rated for 13 G even if the limit on the chart is 7.5 g. Please look at this video and look at the full flaps at 5:22

 

Just because the airframe can take that many G's in certain configurations, doesn't mean that the aux flaps can. Keep in mind that in order to hit 10+ G's you have to be going mightily fast, way faster than any speed reasonable for applying flaps. Even maneuver flaps didn't deploy past 0.58 mach at SL.

 

You guys are way to dependant on using aux flaps at speeds where the real pilots quite simply wouldn't. In other words, using auxilliary flaps above 275 kts just wasn't done.

[Sideburns]

Still I managed to take a clean A to 2.45M after some zoom climbs. But loaded up it doesn't seem to move. Still awesome to fly though. Good to hear it has been fixed, that will just make it more awesome. :)

 

A friend and I took the F14a out for a top speed test, no infinite fuel or invulnerability. Take off from runway, external tanks but otherwise clean. Tacview recorded the top speed as Mach 3.05 at 84kft, but this took some careful flying against the turbine inlet temp and a glide back in to land. Suspect there is some tuning to be done here also, but given it is a first release of course it can be expected some fine tuning will take place.

[maxsin72]

 

Just because the airframe can take that many G's in certain configurations, doesn't mean that the aux flaps can. Keep in mind that in order to hit 10+ G's you have to be going mightily fast, way faster than any speed reasonable for applying flaps. Even maneuver flaps didn't deploy past 0.58 mach at SL.

 

You guys are way to dependant on using aux flaps at speeds where the real pilots quite simply wouldn't. In other words, using auxilliary flaps above 275 kts just wasn't done.

 

I want realism and it's not realistic the flaps become jammed at 240 knots during a levelled flight and without turning. You guys, in the name of the realism, forgot what real pilots were able to do in real life.

[maxsin72]

 

They must ask also Fereydoon ''Ferry Ali'' -Mazandarani, who flew real war dogfights with the F-14.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comm...re_a_story_by/

According to him, the airframe became bent by 11 degrees due to over g, which damaged the electrical wiring within the plane. As a consequence he was unable to fire his weapons (in combat not in training).

 

In your story nobody says how much Gs were pulled.

I prefer to listen to the direct voice of US Navy F14 pilots:

 

[jaguara5]

 

In your story nobody says how much Gs were pulled.

I prefer to listen to the direct voice of US Navy F14 pilots:

 

Given the fact that he didn't blacked out and that the plane was still in one piece and able to flying (actually able to fighting) it's fair to assume that he didn't exceeded the (above mentioned) 13g limit. But we went OT. Fact is about the turn rate, that according to HB the problem is already fixed interanlly (if i remember correctly).

[fat creason]

 

Please, i know you are in touch with them, ask to Paco Chierici and to Snort which was speed and g force they were able to pull without jamming flaps. The chart limit is only on the chart just like g limit: f14 does not breaks at 8 G and does not breaks also at 12.5 G, his frame is rated for 13 G even if the limit on the chart is 7.5 g. Please look at this video and look at the full flaps at 5:22

 

If you can tell what airspeed (or G) they're at from a 3 second clip with no context, you are a very talented individual! We should hire you as a SME.

 

 

I want realism and it's not realistic the flaps become jammed at 240 knots during a levelled flight and without turning. You guys, in the name of the realism, forgot what real pilots were able to do in real life.

 

 

You're right, in the process of working with our SMEs (who have a combined 6000 hours in the jet, but what do they know?) I guess we forgot to think about how the jet actually behaves. We won't make that mistake again. :thumbup:

Edited November 20, 2020 by fat creason

[maxsin72]

 

If you can tell what airspeed they're at from a 3 second clip with no context, you are a very talented individual! We should hire you as a SME.

 

 

 

 

In the process of working with our SMEs, who have a combined 6000 hours in the jet, I guess we forgot to think about how the jet actually behaves. We don't make that mistake again.

 

You forgot Snodgrass that in the video below say he used full flaps at 325 knots. He have almost 5000 hours on the Tomcat...

 

[GGTharos]

 

You forgot Snodgrass that in the video below say he used full flaps at 325 knots. He have almost 5000 hours on the Tomcat...

 

He didn't forget anything, I interpret it as telling you that he won't be basing aircraft behavior on an anecdotal story.

[fat creason]

 

You forgot Snodgrass that in the video below say he used full flaps at 325 knots. He have almost 5000 hours on the Tomcat...

 

He also says that he pulled a circuit breaker that's behind the RIOs head somewhere, take these stories with a grain a salt. Flap jamming will not be changing, learn to fly without full flaps when faster than 225 knots.

Edited November 20, 2020 by fat creason

[maxsin72]

 

He also says that he pulled a circuit breaker that's behind the RIOs head somewhere, take these stories with a grain a salt.

 

I repeat, you have the contact: why don't you ask him? Perhaps he pulled circuit breaker before take off?

[fat creason]

 

I repeat, you have the contact: why don't you ask him? Perhaps he pulled circuit breaker before take off?

 

We have plenty of contacts that all disagree with these embellished stories, and he didn't pull the CB before takeoff (or likely at all). Sorry to disappoint you. Not going to discuss this further and the flap model is not going to change.

[r4y30n]

In one of the other videos from that interview Snodgrass mentions coming back with jammed flaps and multiple over Gs. He may have won engagements by using prohibited techniques but he also broke a lot of planes in the process.

 

And the idea of it being a 13g plane is ridiculous. Mike Ciminera, one of the Grumman engineers on the F-14 team, said in “The Aircraft Designers, a Grumman Historical Perspective” that they were concerned about the strength of the wing box but structural analysis concluded that the engine mounts would fail first at 13g and the wing box would survive to some unstated, higher value. This was an analysis done on paper (and computer) before any planes had actually flown.

 

Even if that analysis was spot on it doesn’t make the F-14 a 13g plane, it means the engines fall out of the nacelles at that point, not to mention losing the INS before you get that far.

[fat creason]

In one of the other videos from that interview Snodgrass mentions coming back with jammed flaps and multiple over Gs. He may have won engagements by using prohibited techniques but he also broke a lot of planes in the process.

 

And the idea of it being a 13g plane is ridiculous. Mike Ciminera, one of the Grumman engineers on the F-14 team, said in “The Aircraft Designers, a Grumman Historical Perspective” that they were concerned about the strength of the wing box but structural analysis concluded that the engine mounts would fail first at 13g and the wing box would survive to some unstated, higher value. This was an analysis done on paper (and computer) before any planes had actually flown.

 

Even if that analysis was spot on it doesn’t make the F-14 a 13g plane, it means the engines fall out of the nacelles at that point, not to mention losing the INS before you get that far.

 

Snort has a reputation among maintainers that is...not great. He's known for wrecking airframes just to prove a point or to stroke an ego.

[Hummingbird]

Before we get more OT with people desperate to keep the flap exploit, here's the real life turn performance of the F-14 & F-15 compared at 5 kft & 10 kft, and finally the F-15 at SL and how you should expect the F-14 to compare there:

 

F-14B/D vs F-15C sustainable load factor (G vs Mach), same load out (4xAIM9 + 4xAIM7 & ~55% fuel), ICAO Std. day.

 

F-14 = 55,620 lbs

F-15 = 41,000 lbs

 

@ 5,000 ft

M 0.3 = 2.35 vs 2.15 (+0.20 to F-14)

M 0.4 = 3.60 vs 3.05 (+0.55 to F-14)

M 0.5 = 4.80 vs 4.05 (+0.75 to F-14)

M 0.6 = 5.70 vs 5.10 (+0.60 to F-14)

M 0.7 = 6.40 vs 6.30 (+0.10 to F-14)

M 0.8 = 7.00 vs 7.50 (+0.50 to F-15)

 

@ 10,000 ft

M 0.3 = 1.95 vs 1.80 (+0.15 to F-14)

M 0.4 = 2.90 vs 2.60 (+0.30 to F-14)

M 0.5 = 4.10 vs 3.40 (+0.60 to F-14)

M 0.6 = 5.00 vs 4.30 (+0.70 to F-14)

M 0.7 = 5.50 vs 5.25 (+0.25 to F-14)

M 0.8 = 6.00 vs 6.40 (+0.40 to F-15)

 

________________________

 

Expected F-14 perf vs RL F-15 perf @ Sea Level, based on the real life 5 kft & 10 kft figures above

M 0.3 = 2.85-2.90 vs 2.60 (+0.35-0.40 to F-14)

M 0.4 = 4.25-4.30 vs 3.65 (+0.60-0.65 to F-14)

M 0.5 = 5.65-5.70 vs 4.80 (+0.85-0.90 to F-14)

M 0.6 = 6.50-6.55 vs 6.00 (+0.50-0.55 to F-14)

M 0.7 = 7.40-7.45 vs 7.40 (~equal)

M 0.8 = 8.20-8.25 vs 8.80 (+0.55-0.55 to F-15)

 

In short the bolded figures to the left in the last list is what we should expect the F-14 to be capable of achieving at SL at a weight of 55,620 lbs carrying 4x AIM9's + 4x AIM-7's.

 

 

Source(s):

The original F-14 & F-15 performance manuals.

[maxsin72]

 

We have plenty of contacts that all disagree with these embellished stories, and he didn't pull the CB before takeoff (or likely at all). Sorry to disappoint you. Not going to discuss this further and the flap model is not going to change.

 

Sorry but it's very difficult to believe at the image of Snodgrass you gave, because, if what you say is true, how is possible he scored this career:

US Navy highlights include:

One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.

First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.

12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.

Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).

Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.

Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).

12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.

Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.

Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.

Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.

Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.

7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.

Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.

Military Decorations include:

Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.

Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.

Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.

Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.

Navy Commendation Medal (3).

Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.

Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:

Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya

bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.

Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours

and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).

Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.

Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:

1. F-86 Sabre

2. Mig 15 Fagot

3. Mig 17 Fresco

4. L-39 Albatross

5. MS760 Paris Jet

6. P-51 Mustang

7. F4-U Corsair

8. P-40 Warhawk

9. T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard

10. 8KCAB Super Decathlon

• Designated one of only nine civilian USAF Heritage Pilots.

• 25 Years of Air-show experience and over 1,000 low level performances in high performance aircraft.

• Single / Multi-Engine / Instrument Instructor (CFI).

• FAA designated Aerobatic Competency Evaluator and Designated Formation Check Pilot.

• 20 years providing Low Altitude (Air-show) Aerobatic Instruction.

 

 

https://swisspl.com/ambassadors/dale-snort-snodgrass/

 

And what about Paco Chierici who say the same things who say Snodgrass?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

Who are the Pilots who say different? CW Lemoine Mover perhaps? He never flied on F14...

 

 

[Skysurfer]

 

Sorry but it's very difficult to believe at the image of Snodgrass you gave, because, if what you say is true, how is possible he scored this career:

US Navy highlights include:

One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.

First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.

12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.

Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).

Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.

Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).

12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.

Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.

Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.

Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.

Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.

7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.

Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.

Military Decorations include:

Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.

Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.

Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.

Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.

Navy Commendation Medal (3).

Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.

Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:

Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya

bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.

Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours

and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).

Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.

Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:

1. F-86 Sabre

2. Mig 15 Fagot

3. Mig 17 Fresco

4. L-39 Albatross

5. MS760 Paris Jet

6. P-51 Mustang

7. F4-U Corsair

8. P-40 Warhawk

9. T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard

10. 8KCAB Super Decathlon

• Designated one of only nine civilian USAF Heritage Pilots.

• 25 Years of Air-show experience and over 1,000 low level performances in high performance aircraft.

• Single / Multi-Engine / Instrument Instructor (CFI).

• FAA designated Aerobatic Competency Evaluator and Designated Formation Check Pilot.

• 20 years providing Low Altitude (Air-show) Aerobatic Instruction.

 

 

https://swisspl.com/ambassadors/dale-snort-snodgrass/

 

And what about Paco Chierici who say the same things who say Snodgrass?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

Who are the Pilots who say different? CW Lemoine Mover perhaps? He never flied on F14...

 

 

Do you have a Snodgrass shrine at home too? Jesus christ....

[GGTharos]

And what about Paco Chierici who say the same things who say Snodgrass?[/url]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

Who are the Pilots who say different? CW Lemoine Mover perhaps? He never flied on F14...

 

What does any of this have to do with how the flaps flap in the wind and under Gs? The identity of the SMEs is literally none of your business either.

It's just unbelievable how taken you are with a few embellished stories.

[maxsin72]

 

Do you have a Snodgrass shrine at home too? Jesus christ....

 

 

And are you used to speaking ill of people without reporting any facts?

Please, don't mention Jesus Christ that has nothing to do with it, thank you

 

 

 

 

 

[maxsin72]

 

What does any of this have to do with how the flaps flap in the wind and under Gs? The identity of the SMEs is literally none of your business either.

It's just unbelievable how taken you are with a few embellished stories.

 

The title of the thread is "Turn rate has tanked with new update" and flaps help turn rate a lot at low speed, now you understand?

[GGTharos]

 

The title of the thread is "Turn rate has tanked with new update" and flaps help turn rate a lot at low speed, now you understand?

 

I understand comparisons to the charts. Not your desire to maintain some kind of flap abuse :)

[Coxy_99]

I love stories however you forgot once apon a time at the beginning ;)

[captain_dalan]

 

The title of the thread is "Turn rate has tanked with new update" and flaps help turn rate a lot at low speed, now you understand?

 

No, they do not. The title refers to the "normal" operations, and that's with the maneuvering flaps-slats ONLY! Now don't get me wrong, i do not approve of the way they handled the flap damage model for multiple reasons, but it has nothing to do with the topic and there is another thread, in the bugs section devoted to it.