DCS: F-15C

[Gunfreak]

10 hours ago, Kev2go said:

 

Good on you but I appreciate the "multirole" even on a dedicated strike mission because unlike a F111 or A10, the F15E can be expected to self escort should it run into to trouble from air threats in a contested environment. Its only somewhat handicapped in WVR due to those CFT's, if you don't need to kill what you need to kill before a merge, but that will be mitigated in a distant future with the planned CTU's that offer Aim9X with JHMCS.

There just isn't any modern bluforce standalone fully fidelity module  that a effective at CAP in the way a F15 is.  F16C radar is still limited in range detection, and doesn't have the gas for cap. F/A18C offers a better radar relative to the F16, carries a larger quantity of Aim120's, but it doesn't have the speed, its really draggy. F15E is the only platform to have both the powerful digitally processed radar, the missile quantity, speed, and station time to be a proper CAP platform. It only lags behind in maneuvering relative to  its dedicated air superiority brother the F15C due to those CFT's.

 

 

 

 

 

And yet the F16 was and is used for CAP. The F15E is not as far as I know(granted I'm very much not an expert)

With the new radar upgrades to the F16 is quite good. And even if it has a bit lower radar range than the SE. You'd never fly CAP without AWACS support anyway. So you don't generally rely on your own radar for enemy detection.

And in the end all 4th gen planes in DCS is stuck with 120C5. So being able to lock a target a 10-20 NM sooner has little practical effects.

And in BVR if you need to crank and go low. You'll usually end up slow and you'll have to climb back up in that big heavy thing. While the F16 will just shoot up back into effective Fox 3 altitude in no time.

[SuperKermit]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Kev2go:

An f15a/c had it been made just a decade later would have been more digital and laden with mfds.

Yes, "if". But the Eagles first flight was in 1976 with the "C" coming out three years later. 

[Kev2go]

11 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

The air superiority capability historically demonstrated by the "C" has more to do with it's flight characteristics than it's switches and buttons.  

Air superiority today is certainly more systems centric but even in it's day f15 avionics we're also a cheif selling point. Specifically The f15 airframe had a large powerfull radar.  Much better then what the f16 offered, and early f16s didn't have any medium range missiles so they couldn't do bvr.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Buzz313th]

5 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

Air superiority today is certainly systems centric but even in it's day f15 avionics we're also a cheif selling point. The f15 airframe had a large powerfull radar.  Much better then what the f16 offered, and early f16s didn't have any medium range missiles so they couldn't do bvr.

True...  But...

The radar only allowed it to "see" at a greater distance.  The "C's" kinematics and energy efficiency allowed it to leverage that extra time and distance against a BVR opponent or opposing flight.  Not to mention, it gave the Eagle "C" more options to commit or extend as it approached the merge.  

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

8 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

The F15E is not as far as I know

Actually it has been and still is, but that's more because of "meh good enough" and lack of proper alternative.
The Strike Eagle has flown CAP missions over Iraq and recently also over the Baltic.

[Gunfreak]

5 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Actually it has been and still is, but that's more because of "meh good enough" and lack of proper alternative.
The Strike Eagle has flown CAP missions over Iraq and recently also over the Baltic.

Hence me not being an expert. Learned something new.

[Buzz313th]

22 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

It's not a problem having worse speed relative to an f15c because the f15e already bests flankers at bvr anyways,

Energy state and the ability to maintain it is everything once committed to a BVR and WVR engagement.  Especially when the goal is to "Only fight on your terms".  

[Kev2go]

22 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

True...  But...

The radar only allowed it to "see" at a greater distance.  It's kinematics and energy efficiency allowed it to utilize that extra time and distance against a BVR opponent or opposing flight.  Not to mention, it gave the Eagle "C" more options to commit or extend as it approached the merge.   

But this was also somewhat analogous  of the f16a. There was a large focus on airframe performance initially. Something about creating the best optimized lightweight dogfighter, wheras later versions packed on more weight, less maneuverable, but had improvements in its systems and evolved to expand the strike role.

The fighter mafia wanted cheap super fighters that emphasized flight characteristics, whilst ignoring the advantages of modern systems,  the generals wanted a more practical fighter bombers, and took a greater interest in systems 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Buzz313th]

4 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

But this was also somewhat analogous  of the f16a.

But the F16 doesn't have the fuel nor the MRM missile capacity to be as effective as an air superiority fighter as the F15C. 

I'm guessing that the cycle time between CAP flights for an all F16 air superiority fleet versus an all F15C fleet would have to be doubled to maintain the same level of air superiority.   

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Kev2go]

22 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

Energy state and the ability to maintain it is everything once committed to a BVR and WVR engagement.  Especially when the goal is to "Only fight on your terms".  

I can fight on my terms as long as I keep them at bay ( bvr) i havr no issue there. Wvr Is genuinly the only area where care about having it better  just in case. Because even then it's not ideal to merge even in a f15c. Regardless of the platform it's ideal to kill anything before a merge. Even of you are flying a platform that is equipped with jhmcs and aim9x.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[draconus]

14 hours ago, Kev2go said:

The fighter mafia wanted cheap super fighters that emphasized flight characteristics tersitics, whilst ignoring the advantages of modern systems,  the generals wanted a more practical fighter bombers, and took a greater interest in systems

That didn't stop AF from using C as the best air superiority fighter up to 2000s and later with ongoing upgrades, so they used both its flight characteristics and systems only to be surpassed by F-22, but still not in everything.

Edited December 5, 2023 by draconus

[Buzz313th]

5 minutes ago, draconus said:

That didn't stop AF from using C as the best air superiority fighter up to 2000s and later with ongoing upgrades, so they used both its flight characteristics and systems too only to be surpassed by F-22, but still not in everything.

Unfortunately, at almost twice the cost as well.  

 

And they probably would have continued using the "C", but airframes were getting old and maintenance costs high..  Not to mention contract kickbacks for Gen5 and the F-15EX started to come in to play.

5 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

I can fight on my terms as long as I keep them at bay ( bvr) i havr no issue there. Wvr Is genuinly the only area where care about having it better  just in case. Because even then it's not ideal to merge even in a f15c

Too bad we can't pull the CFT's off the Razbam "E" to test your theory.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Kev2go]

6 minutes ago, draconus said:

That didn't stop AF from using C as the best air superiority fighter up to 2000s and later with ongoing upgrades, so they used both its flight characteristics and systems too only to be surpassed by F-22, but still not in everything.

Yea  becsuse not enough f22s were produced as intended. So the f15c was forced to soldier on longer then ever anticipated. So much so that newly produced f15ex,s have to be purchase to supplement the air superiority fleet. But even now they are more likely to just be missile trucks for gen 5

 

F15c would have been very dated had it not continued getting modernization in systems. Certain exercises against foreign operators only validated the need for them.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Buzz313th]

2 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

Yea  becsuse not enough f22s were produced as intended. So the f15c was forced to soldier on longer then ever anticipated. So much so that newly produced f15ex,s have to be purchase to supplement the air superiority fleet. But even now they are more likely to just be missile trucks for gen 5

 

F15c would have been very dated had it not continued getting modernization in systems. Certain exercises against foreign operators only validated the need for them.

 

F15C's were getting old and things were cracking.  Maint costs to keep them airworthy was getting very expensive and flight cycles getting longer.  They were becoming cost ineffective.  Plus, political kickbacks from contractors needed to be reestablished.

The combination of the stealthy F-22 and the Missile truck F-15EX working together in a "Buddy BVR Handoff" engagement is the next best thing to "Fighting on your own terms".  

To get back on track with the topic..    

IMHO, the F15C is a needed FF module in DCS because the F-15E by design can't fill it's shoes.

 

 

[Kev2go]

Just now, Buzz313th said:

F15C's were getting old and things were cracking.  Maint costs to keep them airworthy was getting very expensive and flight cycles getting longer.  They were becoming cost ineffective.  Plus, political kickbacks from contractors needed to be reestablished.

The combination of the stealthy F-22 and the Missile truck F-15EX working together in a "Buddy BVR Handoff" engagement is the next best thing to "Fighting on your own terms".  

Yes exactly there is different way to fight on your own terms. 

And its quite a bit different meta today.

 

[Buzz313th]

23 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

And its quite a bit different meta today.

Yes exactly there is different way to fight on your own terms. 

No matter how stealthy you are, how far you can see, how well you can communicate and how solid your SA is......

You still need the tools (Flight characteristics) to maintain initiative throughout the entire engagement.     

And the F15C in A2A did that better than anything else out there during it's time as a frontline asset.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Kev2go]

6 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

No matter how far you can see, how well you can communicate and how solid your SA is......

You still need the tools (Flight characteristics) to maintain initiative throughout the entire engagement.     

You only need good enough flight characteristics, if your systems are s tier excellent. The f35  seems to be a prefect example of this. It doesn't need to be f22 tier in bfm to still be deadly platform. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Buzz313th]

10 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

You only need good enough flight characteristics, if your systems are s tier excellent .

Experienced pilots who fly these types will disagree with that opinion. (From comments I have read or listened to in interviews)  Most responses came from the idea that "Energy is life" and that the pilot who manages it better will win because all "systems" can be countered.  This was the foundational ideology of the "Fighter Mafia" 

 

10 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

The f35  seems to be a prefect example of this. It doesn't need to be f22 tier God in bfm to still be deadly platform. In the a2a arena.

Yet to be proven.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Kev2go]

13 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

Pilots who fly these types will disagree with that opinion. (From comments I have read or listened to in interviews)  Most responses came from the idea that "Energy is life" and that the pilot who manages it better will win because all "systems" can be countered.

Must read or listen to different pilots thenn.This is only the mentality I read of pilots that retired before ever putting time into "stealth" fighters .I keep hearing how stealth plus networking and systems advancements  combined trump whatever the best of teen series could ever offer.

13 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

 

Yet to be proven.

 

Exercises against older generation don't count?

By that logic neither is the f22 proven, just because it never had the opportunity to participate in an actual shooting war against a "peer" opponent ( if there even is such a thing at the present given the us military supremacy)

 

But i think this is just a fallback of the old timers stuck fawning over the older era of aircraft because thats what they grew up with.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Buzz313th]

22 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

Muwt read or loaten to different pilots thrn.This is only the mentality I read of pilots an older epoch that retired before ever putting time into "stealth" fighters .I keep hearing how stealth plus networking and systems advancements in combination trump whatever the best of teen series could ever offer.

In regards to systems, then that's fair.  But not replacing the execution part (Flying).

22 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

Exercises against older generation don't count?

As far as I know, Weapons school students and some international invitees to the NTTR get the opportunity to fly against the "Red Hats", this "Might" mean they are flying against the latest Russian, Chinese and European Gen 4 planes.  And this has been going on for a handful of years with the best pilots we can dig up flying those aggressors.  The "Blue" militaries do a fabulous job teaching our pilots what to expect and how to win against the most relevant equipment.  

22 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

By that logic neither is the f22 proven, just because it never had the opportunity to participate in an actual shooting war against a "peer" opponent ( if there even is such a thing at the present given the us military supremacy)

True

22 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

But i think this is just a fallback of the old timers stuck fawning over the older era of aircraft because thats what they grew up with.

That's what they said about the WWII fighter pilot ideology in the late 40's to early 50's.  Then mistakes were made when they didn't listen to them in the early 60's.  Then the Fighter Mafia helped set them straight.  With the unwillingness to let go of the F-15C until they had to, the development of the F-22 and now the development and delivery of the F-15EX as a support air superiority fighter to the 22, it seems to me that they won't make the same mistake again.    

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Exorcet]

45 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

You only need good enough flight characteristics, if your systems are s tier excellent. The f35  seems to be a prefect example of this. It doesn't need to be f22 tier in bfm to still be deadly platform. 

 

The F-15 isn't 5th gen, so it's not really a one to one comparison. In the situations where the Eagle is fighting, the performance absolutely matters in BVR. And in DCS you're not limited to fighting Flankers, although even in that case you still want all the speed and agility that you can get. BVR isn't just two fighters meeting face to face in a fair encounter. It gets a lot more complicated.

[Kev2go]

16 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

In regards to systems, then that's fair.  But not replacing the execution part (Flying).

As far as I know, Weapons school students and international invitees to the NTTR get the opportunity to fly against the "Red Hats", this "Might" mean they are flying against the latest Russian, Chinese and European Gen 4 planes.  And this has been going on for a handful of years with the best pilots we can dig up flying those aggressors.  The "Blue" militaries do a fabulous job teaching our pilots what to expect and how to win against the most relevant equipment.  

True

That's what they said about the WWII fighter pilot ideology in the late 40's to early 50's.  Then mistakes were made when they didn't listen to them in the early 60's.  Then the Fighter Mafia helped set them straight.  With the unwillingness to let go of the F-15C until they had to, the development of the F-22 and now the development and delivery of the F-15EX as a support air superiority fighter to the 22, it seems to me that they won't make the same mistake again.    

 

The fighter mafia lost any remaining credibility after the gulf war. Although Sprey might be seen as the most vocal critic, You can't be taken seriously if you argue the f15 is gonna be hot garbage because of its cost with the airframe and avionics. Similar argument were recycled against f22 or f35.

Boyd was also widely overated.

Had the fighter mafia truly really gotten their way the f16a would of looked like a faster f5a. No search radar. Just guns a pair of heaters and  gunsight reticule and no strike fighter configurations which in other words would have been cannon fodder.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Buzz313th]

7 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

The fighter mafia lost any remaining credibility after the gulf war.

I never heard of this, please explain.

 

7 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

You can't be taken seriously if you argue the f15 is gonna be hot garbage because of its cost with the airframe and avionics. The same argument used against f35 or f22.

Not following you, please explain.  

7 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

Boyd was also widely overated.

Had the fighter mafia truly really gotten their way the f16a would of looked like a faster f5a. No search radar. Just guns a pair of heaters and a gunfight  and no strike fighter configurations which in other words would have been cannon fodder.

I heard this as well.  But the foundational point they made about (E-M) theory is arguably the biggest design consideration for all air superiority fighter development since.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Kev2go]

24 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The F-15 isn't 5th gen, so it's not really a one to one comparison. In the situations where the Eagle is fighting, the performance absolutely matters in BVR. And in DCS you're not limited to fighting Flankers, although even in that case you still want all the speed and agility that you can get. BVR isn't just two fighters meeting face to face in a fair encounter. It gets a lot more complicated.

I never called the f15 5th gen. I only used 5th gen as example of how Meta of fighter designed changed. That it started being less about flight characteristics of having s super fighter that  and more about avionics.

 

I use Flanker as an example because this was the best fighter  redforce has to offer from the late cold war timeframe. And in DCS in general. I mean there is nothing stopping a f15 from fighting other teen series but in actual combat scenarios it's unlikely to be facing off in a shooting war against aircraft  that mostly allied nations operate 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go

[Kev2go]

1 hour ago, Buzz313th said:

I never heard of this, please explain.

 

Not following you, please explain.  

I heard this as well.  But the foundational point they made about (E-M) theory is arguably the biggest design consideration for all air superiority fighter development since.

 

conclusions i made from a paper i read

 

https://etd.auburn.edu/xmlui/handle/10415/595

 

argues officers who were veterans of the lessons learned in Vietnam were more important drivers in air forces culture and doctrine change, then a group of  theorists whose vision for the perfect fighter were dated for 70s timeframe. Ultimately an emphasis on training, armament reliability maintence,  plus advancements in technology is what was more important.

again E/M is an important consideration  for air superiority fighter design especially for its time, but not at the expense of other things which the fighter mafia couldn't help themselves with. Evident that thier ideal fighter would of been a even simpler F16A.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kev2go