Russian TWS

[Alexrey]

I have a few questions about the Russian TWS radar mode:

 

1) Why can't it function while jammers are being picked up, but the US TWS can?

 

So far I've noticed that its advantages are that it auto-locks onto a bandit if you move the box next to it while still being able to see the other bandits on your HUD, and a nice picture is shown on the MFD. But that's about it. So I have some questions on this part:

 

2) Does the bandit get a radar warning if you fire your SARH/ARH at him in TWS mode?

 

3) Can you fire multiple missiles are different bandits at the same time like the US TWS mode?

 

4) Are there any other things that I should know about the Russian TWS mode?

 

Hope you can help, thanks guys.

[GGTharos]

1) Because the Russian radar processor used onboard those aircraft could not handle the associated workload. No, I'm not kidding.

 

2) Since it switches to STT to fire ... yes. You cannot guide a SARH reliably in TWS, and besides which, the FCS will not generate a launch command from TWS, only from STT.

 

3) No.

 

4) Probably not. It's a situational awareness mode which probably helps out with the flanker's fighter data link, which is not modeled.

[Alexrey]

So in Lock-On it's essentially useless?

[GGTharos]

It enhances your situational awareness.

[nscode]

Also, the enemy doesn't get the lock warning until you get close enough to shoot.

[RedTiger]

So in Lock-On it's essentially useless?

 

In multiplayer where everyone probably flies an aircraft that can jam? Probably. But in that case, the F-15's TWS as modeled in LOMAC isn't much better. Yes, you can still bug a target and launch after burn-through since you have ARHs, but you're missing our on the other big benefit just as much as the Flanker -- the ability to see advanced target information, like heading, at long range.

 

In single player missions it is far from useless. Many of the aircraft in LOMAC are not modeled with ECM capability, so you get full advantage from it. The biggest help is that it puts contacts on your HDD as triangles and circles with a line showing their direction. Its also useful for seeing how far you are from Rmax without having to lock-up the target.

Edited June 11, 2008 by RedTiger

[Azrayen]

In multiplayer where everyone probably flies an aircraft that can jam? Probably.

Perhaps it's what happens on HL (never been there) but it's not multiplayer-related : I fly a lot on multiplayer with my virtual squad (both Coop vs IA and H vs H) and we often use the TWS...

 

Of course, ennemies haven't glued their ECM switch on "On"... (ahem... IA does, in fact, when available):megalol:

 

Cheers

Az'

[nscode]

I've been wondering something... does AI even care if they are locked or not?

[GGTharos]

Obviously not; they only care if a weapon begins tracking them.

[Boberro]

Obviously not; they only care if a weapon begins tracking them.

 

Ohh, pilots need more training :D

[RedTiger]

Perhaps it's what happens on HL (never been there) but it's not multiplayer-related : I fly a lot on multiplayer with my virtual squad (both Coop vs IA and H vs H) and we often use the TWS...

 

Of course, ennemies haven't glued their ECM switch on "On"... (ahem... IA does, in fact, when available):megalol:

 

Cheers

Az'

 

I didn't think about that, yeah a human pilot with half a brain isn't going to keep ECM going 100% of the time like the AI.

[nscode]

Ohh, pilots need more training :D

 

AI are gods... with one braincell. :D

[Azrayen]

I didn't think about that, yeah a human pilot with half a brain isn't going to keep ECM going 100% of the time like the AI.

 

We agree on that point :)

 

Then, TWS is useful against human ennemies, when they've turned off their ECM :)

 

++

Az'

[monotwix]

Talking about AI…

You know you can fly accordingly to the mission briefing and understand priorities, right?

Well AI can only react due to it’s programming regardless of what the mission is, so wouldn’t it be cool to have some way of setting it’s behaviour properties in the mission editor other than [skilled or average] etc. so for each way point you could set it to behave by the means of probable events just like you can set the failures in the failures menu.

And that could be considered as AI briefing and could become useful in MP as well.

No such plans in the future is there? So far it says somewhere that IA will fly a bit more like a human but then human can fly like AI if not briefed or taught.

I think AI are important but so far it appears in most MPs that AWACS is the only AI and not even refueling tankers are taking a part in this.

[Red Hammer]

2) Since it switches to STT to fire ... yes. You cannot guide a SARH reliably in TWS, and besides which, the FCS will not generate a launch command from TWS, only from STT.

 

 

What do you mean TWS can't guide a SARH reliably?

[Frostie]

I think AI are important but so far it appears in most MPs that AWACS is the only AI and not even refueling tankers are taking a part in this.

Thats because they usually get shot down,with the limited area there is only so much you can put in a HL mission as the humans that play in them have no ROE and tend to just shoot up whatever they like, which is detremental to what could be an enjoyable mission.

[GGTharos]

I mean exactly what I said. SARH missiles cannot be expected to hit a target when launched in TWS mode, if that is at all possible.

 

What do you mean TWS can't guide a SARH reliably?

[59th_LeFty]

I mean exactly what I said. SARH missiles cannot be expected to hit a target when launched in TWS mode, if that is at all possible.

 

Since "TWS" is not Tracking while scan in Russian planes, it is not possible. Many times SNP and TWS are treated as the same, they are absolutely different. I could be probably called "Measure while search" because the box locked on a specific target only gives more detailed information about it, and does not tracking it. Therefore, if a bandit moves out of the radar's current sight, you loose the target. So there is NO tracking in the specific target. And as you said, SNP only gives you a greater situational awareness.

Anyway, if the boxed target get within the 75% (or so..) of the selected weapon's range, the radar automatically switches to single target track.

[GGTharos]

No, this is incorrect. The Russian SNP is a real TWS mode. The F-15 just has fire control offloading and datalink attached to that radar mode; the fact of the matter IS that a SARH missile cannot be terminally guided to a target in a TWS mode, as it requires a relatively constant illumination of the target.

 

Fire control and tracking are two separate things; TWS does not imply fire control (ie. you can have TWS on the F_15 with sparrows, but you can't launch the sparrows in TWS). SNP gives less info and doesn't permit you to see a whole lot of info on multiple targets, which is a DISPLAY/usability issue. The radar is still providing all that info anyway.

 

The AIM-54 is an example of SARH-to-ARH for terminal: It had no datalink, rather inertial + SARH guidance to ARH range (every time the F-14 radar swept over the target in TWS mode, the missile would see the flash in SARH mode and correct course if necessary ... but this was not adequate for terminal guidance, therefore ARH was used)

[Azrayen]

Well AI can only react due to it’s programming regardless of what the mission is, so wouldn’t it be cool to have some way of setting it’s behaviour properties in the mission editor other than [skilled or average] etc.

Well, this is a bit off-topic but anyway :

You may set IA behaviour properties regarding the mission type :

An "Intercept" IA won't react the same as a "nothing" or a "CAS".

 

I agree that it's still limited, but with precise tuning, it has been proven useful :)

 

The future ? It's called DCS, and you may read a lot about the future ME on the dedicated website and board room. ;)

 

Cheers

Az'

[Alfa]

You are wrong Lefty.

 

The purpose of "SNP" is exactly to track multiple contacts(up to 10) in order to determine which of them to engage and as such is no different from "Western" TWS.

 

Radars with mechanically actuated antennas cannot support SARH missiles from TWS mode, but need to concentrate their "illumination" on a single target in order for the missile's SARH seeker to have sufficient radar returns to home on.

 

The reason why the N019 (MiG-29)and N001 (Su-27) radars automatically switch to STT prior to missile launch is simply because they were designed at a time where only SARH missiles were available.

 

The N001 is really an upscaled N019 so the design and functionality is the same, but there are other(newer) Russian airborne radars which are much closer in design to "Western" radars and thus have very similar functionality - including ability to engage multiple targets from TWS with ARH missiles......i.e. the SNP mode of the N019 and N001 does not reflect a particular Russian approach to TWS :) .

 

Edit: GG beat me to it.

[Majesco]

F-15's AN/APG-63 in comparison with Russian fighters' N-001/ N019, which radar is better and more versatile ?

 

Can we increase expected altitude up or down to +/-15km to detect any flying objects with AN/APG-63 as we can do with MiG-29's Phazotron N019 ?

 

ps: hope someone analyze advantages & disadvantages between US and Russian radars :D

Edited June 27, 2008 by Majesco

[Alfa]

SNP gives less info and doesn't permit you to see a whole lot of info on multiple targets, which is a DISPLAY/usability issue. The radar is still providing all that info anyway.

 

Correct. The idea behind the SNP mode with the N019/N001 was really to decrease pilot workload by letting the firecontrol computer collect the track data, analyse the tactical situation and based on that pick the most appropriate target for engagement. I believe thats the reason why less of the collected information is displayed to the pilot as compared with "Western" TWS - i.e. because the very idea was to let the radar do the work for the pilot, rather than providing him which increased "SA" to base his decisions on.

 

But again - this is an old radar design and it would be incorrect to think that it reflects a general "Russian TWS" approach(as the thread title suggests) :) .

[GGTharos]

Alfa: Yup, just a difference in philosophy :) Also, IIRC that data was provided on the FDL display.

 

Majesco: In LOMAC there's practically no difference (both are N-001 radars, the F-15's is 'reskinned' with a TWS FCR built in). The APG-63v1 beats the Russian radars hands down - but only in reality. N/A LO.

 

And yes, you can scan as high as the gimbals will permit in the F-15, though the displayed ceiling is 60000' in LO. That won't stop you from detecting someone who's flying higher than that.

 

F-15's AN/APG-63 in comparison with Russian fighters' N-001/ N019, which radar is better and more versatile ?

 

Can we increase expected altitude up or down to +/-15km to detect any flying objects with AN/APG-63 as we can do with MiG-29's Phazotron N019 ?

 

ps: hope someone analyze advantages & disadvantages between US and Russian radars :D

[Alfa]

F-15's AN/APG-63 in comparison with Russian fighters' N-001/ N019, which radar is better and more versatile ?

 

The APG-63 is a much more complex set and as such the more versatile....by far.

 

ps: hope someone analyze advantages & disadvantages between US and Russian radars :D

 

Again - you would need to narrow that down to particular radars designs.

 

If the purpose is a US vs. Russian radar comparison then, from a time frame perspective, it might make sense to compare the N001 to the APG-63, but design-wise it would make more sense to compare the APG-63 to the Zhuk-MS or N011.