SD-10 broken with last Beta update

[Stoikiy]

Dear developers of JF-17, I think that with the latest beta update, the air-to-air missiles broke.

When the enemy maneuvers to the ground, the missile takes too much lead down and its personal radar loses its target.

On this track I fired 4 rockets yesterday and all have 100% the same behavior.
 

 

[kengou]

Looks to me like that SD-10 just lost lock there.

[Hodo]

It looks like they broke the lock.  That is it.  

 

Also what range were those shots taken and at what alt, speed and what was the velocity and alt of the target?  I can't really see on my phone.

[Stoikiy]

2 часа назад, kengou сказал:

Looks to me like that SD-10 just lost lock there.

 

Yeah. exactly , they go so deep down and own radar just cant track the target. But it is seems like not correct behaviour

[kengou]

1 minute ago, Stoikiy said:

 

Yeah. exactly , they go so deep down and own radar just cant track the target. But it is seems like not correct behaviour

All the examples in this video occur when the enemy is notching and chaffing. Seems from this evidence the SD-10 just got spoofed and the bandit successfully defended against the missile.

[Stoikiy]

3 минуты назад, kengou сказал:

All the examples in this video occur when the enemy is notching and chaffing. Seems from this evidence the SD-10 just got spoofed and the bandit successfully defended against the missile.

 

it was okay in the more older updates. And AIM-120 track the target even after complete loss of energy (no matter what)  so.  You think it's okay that SD-10 can be spoofed so easily and AMRAAM are not?

[kengou]

9 minutes ago, Stoikiy said:

 

it was okay in the more older updates. And AIM-120 track the target even after complete loss of energy (no matter what)  so.  You think it's okay that SD-10 can be spoofed so easily and AMRAAM are not?

I have no idea what's realistic regarding chaff resistance, maybe it needs more tweaks. But I see no evidence that SD-10s are "broken" as your post suggests.

[AeriaGloria]

On 1/29/2021 at 7:10 AM, Stoikiy said:

 

it was okay in the more older updates. And AIM-120 track the target even after complete loss of energy (no matter what)  so.  You think it's okay that SD-10 can be spoofed so easily and AMRAAM are not?

Depends what AMRAAM you mean. AIM-120B is probably around the same or slightly better then SD-10, but the AIM-120C has the highest countermeasure resistance in the game. 
 

FWIW CM resistance and modeling has changed a lot in the past few months. It used to be based on aspect only but in the past few months they have increased the look down penalty for all missiles, and instead of simplistic beaming aspect = notch, it is now more like reality with a successful notch having to be within a certain window of closure speed compared to ground speed/TAS. In some ways that makes a notch easier and I’m sure it makes it harder in some ways

[Hodo]

Ok watched the video on a larger screen.

 

1- your launch perimeters was off.  You were going .92 mach at what looked liked you were below 20kft asl.  The range was well with in the range... 

 

2- The F-15 did what he was supposed to do.  Turn, dive and go fast....all of which the Eagle excels at.  He broke mach 1.4 and the SD-10 was unable to track the extreme lead.  

 

You can do the same thing to Aim-120s.  

 

[GGTharos]

On 1/30/2021 at 2:51 PM, AeriaGloria said:

FWIW CM resistance and modeling has changed a lot in the past few months. It used to be based on aspect only but in the past few months they have increased the look down penalty for all missiles, and instead of simplistic beaming aspect = notch, it is now more like reality with a successful notch having to be within a certain window of closure speed compared to ground speed/TAS. In some ways that makes a notch easier and I’m sure it makes it harder in some ways

 

None of this has changed since LOMAC.  There has always been aspect and look-down, the question is mostly how the parameters are tweaked.   The code, AFAIK, remains the same.  The notch always fell into a closure window defined in the lua files which made things more obvious.

On 1/29/2021 at 10:10 AM, Stoikiy said:

 

it was okay in the more older updates. And AIM-120 track the target even after complete loss of energy (no matter what)  so.  You think it's okay that SD-10 can be spoofed so easily and AMRAAM are not?

 

Your missile got notched.  It's the same behavior for all missiles in-game.

[Stoikiy]

2 часа назад, GGTharos сказал:

Your missile got notched.  It's the same behavior for all missiles in-game.

notched - it when the plane just go a little down? hmmm. Do not seen this with other rokets. like example AMRAAM kill my heli from 30000 ft and rocket just fly on 90 degrees deep down.

Can i hear official answer from module dev-s about this topic? not from "alternative physics witnesses "

Edited February 2, 2021 by Stoikiy

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, Stoikiy said:

notched - it when the plane just go a little down? hmmm. Do not seen this with other rokets. like example AMRAAM kill my heli from 30000 ft and rocket just fly on 90 degrees deep down.

Can i hear official answer from module dev-s about this topic? not from "alternative physics witnesses "

 

I have had both SDs and 120s do the same thing.  They are not god mode missiles.  They can be miss.  Remember finding a target against ground than it is against the sky.  

[uboats]

1 hour ago, Stoikiy said:

notched - it when the plane just go a little down? hmmm. Do not seen this with other rokets. like example AMRAAM kill my heli from 30000 ft and rocket just fly on 90 degrees deep down.

Can i hear official answer from module dev-s about this topic? not from "alternative physics witnesses "

 

we cannot debug without trk, acmi for us not that useful

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, Stoikiy said:

notched - it when the plane just go a little down? hmmm. Do not seen this with other rokets. like example AMRAAM kill my heli from 30000 ft and rocket just fly on 90 degrees deep down.

Can i hear official answer from module dev-s about this topic? not from "alternative physics witnesses "

 

 

Yes, the plane went 'just a little bit down' and entered the closure exclusion gate, because this is exactly how the notch is defined in DCS:  ANY look-down + inside the exclusion gate (ie. closure inside +/-50m/s or whatever it is set to) means the seeker loses lock. 

 

[Tiger-II]

The other consideration is the relative angle between the target and the seeker. I'm not sure what it is for SD-10, but AMRAAM is +/- 60 deg. IIRC, so if the missile has to maneuver such that the target ends up outside of the seeker cone, the missile is physically incapable of keeping its seeker pointing at the target, and loses lock.

 

What happens in the track appears to be valid.

[Zhivuchiy]

I wonder if loft behavior should be adjusted. Comparing to AMRAAM SD-10 has a very subtle loft, which has huge impact on range or is there any way of controlling loft?

 

[Mustang25]

The SD-10 does not auto-loft, you have to manually pitch up and fire it. I can’t remember what the pitch angle was, it’s somewhere here in the forum. I want to say more than 8 degrees?

[Zhivuchiy]

Hmm... Interesting. Thank you, I will try

[Chiron]

On 2/26/2021 at 8:11 PM, Zhivuchiy said:

Hmm... Interesting. Thank you, I will try

u can try 10 degree of 15 and see the result

 

[Zhivuchiy]

Yeah, it makes a lot of difference 

[mrfoxik]

Datalink for RED JF10 broken too :(.
Bluefor can not have to difficult so they nerf redfor as much as they can hahaha - irony.
Anyway do you have problems with datalink in JF17 REDFOR?

[Mike_Romeo]

17 hours ago, mrfoxik said:

Anyway do you have problems with datalink in JF17 REDFOR?

No, it works perfectly in the JF-17

[Zhivuchiy]

Does anyone know, If you do a long shot and missile goes active, but have not acquired target with its own radar yet, does it still receive guidance commands from the plane or flies ballistically waiting until something can be locked with on-board radar?

[Chiron]

1 hour ago, Zhivuchiy said:

Does anyone know, If you do a long shot and missile goes active, but have not acquired target with its own radar yet, does it still receive guidance commands from the plane or flies ballistically waiting until something can be locked with on-board radar?

i dont get it , the missile timer once it go off it will be active on its own radar but .... if u lost lock then the missile will go dump unless the bandit stay in the missile Cone he can pick him again but its not a common ... so long shots work yes but dont lose lock until it goes Pitbull 

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, Zhivuchiy said:

Does anyone know, If you do a long shot and missile goes active, but have not acquired target with its own radar yet, does it still receive guidance commands from the plane or flies ballistically waiting until something can be locked with on-board radar?

 

In the game, once active it  just does its own thing.