AIM120C Time-to-Active Question

[wilbur81]

Hey fellas.

 

Question for you all that I'm puzzled by: I've noticed that my 120C launches from the Hornet against the Viper are never arriving as early as the Viper's are at me. This makes perfect sense, of course, when the Viper is launching higher and faster (which is mostly always ) than me. However, I did several tests where I (in the Hornet) launch simultaneously with an AI Viper, only I am higher and faster... and the Viper's 120C always goes active first (see screenshot collage) by a full 6-7 seconds before mine does. I saved a track but it failed to replicate on viewing. I'm happy to load another, though. So, as you'll see in the picture:

 

- We both launched 120c's simultaneously with head-on aspects.

- I launched at 795 kts and 37,436ft 

- Viper launched at 710 kts and 33,323 ft

- I received the aural RWR warning tone as his missile went active while my RDR page indicated that I still had 6 seconds until my 120c's Pitbull.

 

I've tried this scenario several times and am not sure if it has something to do with a bug in the A.I., the Viper, the Hornet, or some other combination?

 

Any Sherlocks want to weigh in for this Watson?

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by wilbur81

[...]

I requested this test a year ago, suspecting that AMRAAM does not behave the same in all modules. Time proved me right, but at that moment they condemned me to the stake. Thanks for sharing.

[wilbur81]

For sure. I do wonder, though, if it isn't an A.I. thing only? Regardless, the Viper is WAY far away from being finished so they may need to iron out how it supports the 120C as well... It just makes Hornet vs. Viper REALLY challenging at the moment when speed/altitude in a given scenario (like mine posted above) is actually in favor of the Hornet and the Viper's 120C's still arrive first, go active first, etc. 

[dundun92]

You cant use the TTA counter to base this entirely. Simply look at the tacview for that moment (use a flare drop), and see how far the missile actually is (active range is 15km, hardcoded), the TTA counter is not the most accurate.

[wilbur81]

6 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

You cant use the TTA counter to base this entirely. Simply look at the tacview for that moment (use a flare drop), and see how far the missile actually is (active range is 15km, hardcoded), the TTA counter is not the most accurate.

Yeah, I've wondered about that as well. I'm not a Tacview user, though, and don't have it downloaded. But I did wonder if it had something to do with the TTA counters' accuracy in the cockpit. I have noted, though, that a quick view of the F10 map shows the missile physically ahead of mine in progress. Big ask, DunDun: Would you be willing to run a test and observe the results in Tacview for us? No pressure. I would be curious, though, to see it from that more objective perspective. I'd be happy to post the mission file for you in a bit, but it's a pretty straightforward setup as you can see from the screenshot above. 

 

Thanks!

[dundun92]

If you have a track I can simply replay it when I get a chance

[BarTzi]

wilbur81, even if we wanted to help- the attached pic provides almost zero information. The F10 view doesn't really help us understand what was going on. You should provide an F10 view when the missile go active. then we could (sort of) try and figure out what went wrong. 

[wilbur81]

19 minutes ago, BarTzi said:

 the attached pic provides almost zero information. 

Really?

 

Also, an F10 view at time of missiles going active would be useless because, while I kept my same heading (towards but with a slight offset to the bandit) throughout the flight of both missiles for the sake of my test, the A.I. aircraft immediately began to evasively maneuver so the distances from missile to targets (his to mine and mine to his were not equal. (maybe that affects when a 120C goes active?).

 

Dundun was right in his comment above, this really needs a tacview treatment. But you could try this yourself if you care to. As you can see from my screenshot, it is a very simple scenario to setup.

Edited February 1, 2021 by wilbur81

[Razor18]

On 1/31/2021 at 8:29 PM, wilbur81 said:

Yeah, I've wondered about that as well. I'm not a Tacview user, though, and don't have it downloaded. But I did wonder if it had something to do with the TTA counters' accuracy in the cockpit. I have noted, though, that a quick view of the F10 map shows the missile physically ahead of mine in progress. Big ask, DunDun: Would you be willing to run a test and observe the results in Tacview for us? No pressure. I would be curious, though, to see it from that more objective perspective. I'd be happy to post the mission file for you in a bit, but it's a pretty straightforward setup as you can see from the screenshot above. 

 

Thanks!

 

I'm not affiliated with TacView in any way, but I would definitely recommend to download TacView Starter version to every DCS explorers, because it is free and it is invaluable for such curiosities about DCS. Installing it is a breeze, and DCS supports it. And you could post here your own observations in form of a TacView track file for anyone to take a look at. Just saying...

[wilbur81]

On 2/2/2021 at 3:28 AM, Razor18 said:

 

I'm not affiliated with TacView in any way, but I would definitely recommend to download TacView Starter version to every DCS explorers, because it is free and it is invaluable for such curiosities about DCS. Installing it is a breeze, and DCS supports it. And you could post here your own observations in form of a TacView track file for anyone to take a look at. Just saying...

Yeah, I played around with it a bit back in the old LOMAC days. I've heard some folks indicate that it has a FPS performance hit now. Have you ever encountered that? Sorry, off topic now.

Edited February 3, 2021 by wilbur81

[Razor18]

Nope

[SnapRoll]

On 2/1/2021 at 8:59 PM, wilbur81 said:

Also, an F10 view at time of missiles going active would be useless because, while I kept my same heading (towards but with a slight offset to the bandit) throughout the flight of both missiles for the sake of my test, the A.I. aircraft immediately began to evasively maneuver so the distances from missile to targets (his to mine and mine to his were not equal. (maybe that affects when a 120C goes active?).

 

I think you got your answer here. While you are somewhat flying toward your opponents missile, he is more or less flying away. There is two things that make a 120 go active, either the distance to target reached a certain distance, or when the supporting aircraft looses lock on the target.

 

It can happen that your opponent looses lock because he is defending.

Also, when your opponent is defending and going to a lower altitude, your missile is also going lower and will be slowed down faster than his.

If you stay at your 37'000, his missile will inevitably be faster that yours and reach you much earlier.

 

Only a tacview analysis will really tell what happened.

 

[wilbur81]

5 hours ago, SnapRoll said:

 

Only a tacview analysis will really tell what happened.

 

Quick question: Does tacview actually give an accurate indication of when a 120C goes active?

[dundun92]

4 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

Quick question: Does tacview actually give an accurate indication of when a 120C goes active?

Indirectly, as  the missile is hardcoded to go active at 15km. So just see when the missile-target distance hits 15km

[wilbur81]

32 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Indirectly, as  the missile is hardcoded to go active at 15km. So just see when the missile-target distance hits 15km

Hmm, I could just do that with the F10 map and the ruler, no?

[dundun92]

2 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

Hmm, I could just do that with the F10 map and the ruler, no?

You could technically, yes