Can't engage ZSU 23-4 Shilka with Anti-Radiation missiles?

[Snappy]

Hi,

 

is there a reason why you can't engage the ZSU-23-4 with the KH-58 or KH-22MPU antiradiation missile?

After all it has a search and track radar, which the fantasmagoria pod picks up and you can even designate

it as a target with the pod.

However you never get launch authorization for the missiles, so you can't fire them.

I'm not sure whether there is a technical reason for this, i.e. a  real limitation of the weapon system 

(i.e. Shilka uses different frequency band which the missiles cant lock on to , or something along those lines) or is this

a bug?

 

It would definitely come in handy to be able to pick them off with stand off missiles.

Kind regards,

Snappy

Edited February 1, 2021 by Snappy

[Mike_Romeo]

I belive that the AI is smart enough to turn it radar off so that you cant track it with the fantasmagoria pod. I also belive that the Shilka has a optical sensor to track targets but not sure about that. Keep in mind that his radar is very small and may not have enough range to lock it up from far ranges.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mike_Romeo

[MAXsenna]

It works. Just get close enough, and they will turn on. But alas. Then you're too close for those missiles.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Northstar98]

22 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

I belive that the AI is smart enough to turn it radar off so that you cant track it with the fantasmagoria pod. I also belive that the Shilka has a optical sensor to track targets but not sure about that. Keep in mind that his radar is very small and may not have enough range to lock it up from far ranges.

 

 

In DCS its limited search mode isn't implemented AFAIK (the RADAR should be able to do a full rotation independent of the turret), the RADAR is only boresighted to guns, but even you you're right, the RADAR isn't going to be much past 20km maximum (if that).

 

The Shilka does also have an optical sensor, though I imagine would more be used if the RADAR wasn't operating.

 

Spoiler

AFAIK the Shilka has 4 main tracking/FCS modes.

 

• Fully RADAR directed; RADAR provides ranging and angle rate measurements.
• RADAR range only; RADAR only provides ranging, optical system computes angle rate - this is broadly similar to tank FCS, just with a laser rangefinder instead of a RADAR.
• Optical w. manual ranging; range is manually estimated, optical system provides angle rate measurements.
• Fully manual; operators have to manually estimate range and lead - more similar with a WW2 tank. Typically only used in emergencies or against ground targets.

 

[Snappy]

No I think  we re talking past each other.

Its not that the Shilka turns off its radar ( sure in real life something the operator might try) the radar is on and emitting, otherwise the fantasmagoria

pod couldnt pick it up. You can even designate it  in the HUD and is stays on/cued as the target and is tracked  the whole time.

And well within range of the two types of anti-radiation missiles.

But I can't actually launch the missiles, because I never get the "NP" launch authorization.

Or were you guys actually able to launch either the KH58 or KH22MPU at it?

Regards,

Snappy

Edited February 1, 2021 by Snappy

[Ironhand]

2 hours ago, Snappy said:

...is there a reason why you can't engage the ZSU-23-4 with the KH-58 or KH-22MPU antiradiation missile?

After all it has a search and track radar, which the fantasmagoria pod picks up and you can even designate

it as a target with the pod.

However you never get launch authorization for the missiles, so you can't fire them...

You mean that you can target them at long range? If so, that might actually be the bug, since the Shilka’s gun radar range is limited. It used to be that you were practically on top of it before you could lock it. If you were really fast, you could just barely snap a missile off.

 

But what you can do, assuming you can lock the signal at sufficiently long range is to bring the pantasmagoria pod but leave the anti radiation missiles behind. Instead bring along other types of missiles. Lock the shilka with the pod, then switch on the Shkval and use that to launch the missile of your choice.

 

EDIT: It’s been years since I last used this platform for SEAD but it used to be that the Shkval would focus on what the pod had locked. That was why the above worked. Hopefully it still does.

 

I used to use this tactic when hunting armor, etc because anything radiating that was part of the mix would pinpoint them for me. That radiation source would often be the last thing I’d attack.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Ironhand

[MAXsenna]

No I think  we re talking past each other.

Its not that the Shilka turns off its radar ( sure in real life something the operator might try) the radar is on and emitting, otherwise the fantasmagoria
pod couldnt pick it up. You can even designate it  in the HUD and is stays on/cued as the target and is tracked  the whole time.
And well within range of the two types of anti-radiation missiles.

But I can't actually launch the missiles, because I never get the "NP" launch authorization.

Or were you guys actually able to launch either the KH58 or KH22MPU at it?


Regards,

Snappy

I believe I've always been too close to shoot anti-radiation missiles at it. Only laser guided, because I've always been way too close when they turn on.
But I have used the pod to lock on too it, and then use some other weapon.

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[Snappy]

On 2/1/2021 at 9:22 PM, Ironhand said:

 

But what you can do, assuming you can lock the signal at sufficiently long range is to bring the pantasmagoria pod but leave the anti radiation missiles behind. Instead bring along other types of missil

@Ironhand& @MAXsenna,

 

maybe you're right , I really hadn't thought that the problem might be that I'm min-ranging the Antiradiation missiles. Can't really say since the range bar on the left shows no markings , could be the min range is actually above the scale and therefore no tick is shown on the range scale. That would explain it.

@Ironhand:

 

Excuse my ignorance, what exactly do you mean by the Skhval? The LLTV system for targeting? Unfortunately it seems I can bring either one or the other (fantasmagoria or LLTV pod ), but not both , since the centreline station supports only of them.

 

 

 

Kind regards,

Snappy

Edited February 3, 2021 by Snappy

[MAXsenna]

@Ironhand& @MAXsenna,
 
maybe you're right , I really hadn't thought that the problem might be that I'm min-ranging the Antiradiation missiles. Can't really say since the range bar on the left shows no markings , could be the min range is actually above the scale and therefore no tick is shown on the range scale. That would explain it.

@Ironhand:
 
Excuse my ignorance, what exactly do you mean by the Skhval? The LLTV system for targeting? Unfortunately it seems I can bring either one or the other (fantasmagoria or LLTV pod ), but not both , since the centreline station supports only of them.
 
 
 
Kind regards,

Snappy

What I do is that I use the Phantasmagoria to lock it and I have the Shkval turned on, then I switch missile turn on laser and shoot. But I have to be real quick, because it seems it only turns on the radar when I'm really close. So I have to sort of know the bearings before I go hunting. I have practiced this a lot before in the Quickstart SEAD mission close to Senaki. Though, things might have changed, because it's probably some years ago. This was before I started collecting modules.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Snappy]

Thanks man,

 

I'll gonna try that technique out! I think I was under the Miss-impretation, that the Skhval TV sensor was housed in the mountable pod on centrestation, hence my question to Ironhand above, but it seems the pod is only for IR/LLTV enhancement. 
The manual isnt all that clear on the sensors.

 

 

Regards,

Snappy.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Snappy

[Hodo]

You can't really target AAA with ARMs on any aircraft except maybe the AGM-122 Sidearm.  I usually use vikrs for killing Shilkas.

[Ironhand]

Just came back to confirm that you will, indeed, lose launch authorization for the KH-58 or KH-22MPU well before you pick up the Shilka's radar.

 

Edit: A quick demonstration:

 

https://youtu.be/xuiocPSYeXk

Edited February 4, 2021 by Ironhand

[Northstar98]

On 2/1/2021 at 8:10 PM, Snappy said:

No I think  we re talking past each other.

Its not that the Shilka turns off its radar ( sure in real life something the operator might try) the radar is on and emitting, otherwise the fantasmagoria

pod couldnt pick it up.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I've never had a Shilka pop-up on RWR until I was basically on top of it.

 

Just did a few tests, and now I'm confused. How were you managing to get the Shilka to track you from further out? For me with the alarm state set to red or auto, the Shilka my RWR & fantasmagoria only picked up the Shilka when it started tracking me, which was ~2km, inside the minimum range of the Kh-25MPU.

 

It did the same thing when paired up with a search/acquisition RADAR.

 

 

I did a quick test with the alarm state set to green in case there's a DCS-ism whereby the fantasmagoria can detect RADARs that aren't emitting, however from my limited test, that isn't the case, the fantasmagoria never detects it (which should be the case, given that the RADAR is stowed and not-emitting).

 

 

The Shilka in DCS definitely doesn't have its (limited) search mode, and it only puts it RADAR on you from 2km and below, which is inside the minimum range of the Kh-25MPU (and presumably the larger, faster Kh-58U).

 

Su-25T_Fatasmagoria_Shilka_AUTO.trk Su-25T_Fatasmagoria_Shilka_GREEN.trk Su-25T_Fatasmagoria_Shilka_RED.trk

Edited February 5, 2021 by Northstar98