Indian Su-30MKI to Red Flag '08

[Esac_mirmidon]

Hey GG. like always i really appreciate your oppinions, very interesting.

 

They could be very interesting to know the ROE´s of this exercises and when a kill is confirmed or not.

 

Today fighting against a pair or four F-22 is suicidal. But i think is a matter of time to develope RWR that could aware of F-22 radar illumination, better IR systems that could lock in less heat signature ( maybe the heat generated in the air friction against airframe ), better SAM radars that could lock and fire at this beast, and better AESA or other development radars in other countries that could counter the F-22 in his own terms.

 

One day, not very far, the F-22 could be beatable, but this day the USA would show the new "F-42" and the chase starts again.

[Groove]

The "trick" the F-22 is doing is to relay on enemy Emissions instead of their own. As GG wrote, LPI Radars are "stealthy", but their power output is also limited. The F-22 uses all the Emissions "out there" to get a better picture of the battlefield and to get into the range of their own LPI radars effective use.

 

The RAM coating is applied on the wing edges, plus a special RAM/ceramic coating on the exhaust nozzles. The whole airframe is painted with a special coat which reduces IR reflection.

[GGTharos]

Hey GG. like always i really appreciate your oppinions, very interesting.

 

They could be very interesting to know the ROE´s of this exercises and when a kill is confirmed or not.

 

Obviously most of the actual parameters they use are classified, but to give you an example of a parameters I am familiar with, you would be awarded with a kill for calling a 'fox 2' against a beaming or almost beaming target, that is 'look up', and between 4000' and 9000' away.

According to a source I trust, these parameters are stricter than actual weapon capabilities.

 

Today fighting against a pair or four F-22 is suicidal. But i think is a matter of time to develope RWR that could aware of F-22 radar illumination, better IR systems that could lock in less heat signature ( maybe the heat generated in the air friction against airframe ), better SAM radars that could lock and fire at this beast, and better AESA or other development radars in other countries that could counter the F-22 in his own terms.

 

Such an RWR is already being designed; but then, the F-22's LPI is being upgraded accordingly more likely than not. Also realize that the F-22 carries an ESM suite capable of a BVR weapons fire solution that does not require it to turn on its radar - we won't even go into fun datalink stuff etc.

As for new IR systems - those IR systems are already here. The fact is that they are still shorter ranged than radars, the F-22 is still supressed against them, and you still need to get close because using the USAF's most advanced dogfighting missile: The AIM-9X.

Other countries need to develop stealth; radars alone won't help because all you're going to do with a 'cool radar' is watch your inevitable doom as weapons fail to guide on your stealthy target ...

 

One day, not very far, the F-22 could be beatable, but this day the USA would show the new "F-42" and the chase starts again.

 

If by 'not very far' you mean in 20 years, I agree. Realize that the USAF didn't ask for the Raptor so it can just own the air NOW. It asked for a plane that can own the sky NOW and during its entire service life.

 

And I think that the USAF has shown with both the F-15 and F-16, and the NAVY with their F-14 and -18, that they really -can- make this work as advertized.

 

Also, it's not that the F-22 is unbeatable. We know that the F-22 suffered a few (very few) deaths in exercises, we have pictures of it in an F-18's gun pipper, and so on and so forth. The point is, everything in air combat seems to center around the magical 'exchange ratio' ... and that number represents a very simple thing:

 

How many enemy planes can my plane kill for every time that it is gets itself killed?

 

The F-15C's computed exchange ration, IIRC, against a Su-27P/S was something around 1:6 (six flankers for an eagle. Fair trade, no? ;) ) ... with the Su-27SM and Su-35 modernization, that exchange ratio 'went' to 1:2 ... which is why Raptor is needed, and its exchange ratio is - as you probably saw - huge.

 

Now, are these numbers I presented accurate? ... I don't know :D The reason I presented them is to give you an idea of how I believe the USAF thinks about these things.

[RedTiger]

If you want to think about how advanced the Raptor must be, I think its a good idea to take a look at the F-15A. I have a book about the F-15 and its a very good book, written well past what I would call "layman's" language and seems almost perfectly aimed at the flight simmer. So imagine my surprise and excitement that the co-author is an ED tester, Steve Davies, I think.

 

Anyways...this very high-level but not layman's book goes into a bit of the details of the original F-15 produced in 1972. The thought put into that fighter, all the system integration, all tailored to let one person fly it and fight with it, must have been a marvel back then and still is today. We take for granted things like a dynamic launch zone and a nice VSD that shows you in nice symbology what the radar is picking up. That was all very, very advanced stuff back in the early 70's all dependent on computer memory and processing power.

 

This is to say nothing about the TEWS...that system and all the integrated parts and how they work together still seems like a marvel to me, even in this day and age.

 

Now fast forward 30 years and just imagine what the Raptor is capable of...

[GGTharos]

Keep in mind that TEWS is in fact still classified!

 

The F-22 integrates everything; what you used to think of as separate systems - RWR, Jammer, radar, radios, datalinks, navigation ... all that is now heavily integrated.

Perhaps one of the simplest examples would be to say that, if an F-22 wants to ID you, it can:

 

Use off-board sources (anyone who's hooked up to link-16)

Use its own NCTR

Use its own IFF/possibly enemy IFF ;)

Use its own RWR/ESM suite

Combine this with intelligence (did that aircraft seem to take off from airfield x? is airfield x a military airfield? is airfield x an enemy airfrield? If you answered 'yes' to all of the above, mark contact as enemy)

 

While you as a pilot can do such a thing in an F-15A, the F-22 just does all this work for you.

[mvsgas]

I just realize that this SU-30MKI is carrying a ACMI pod on the left wing and I got curious.

--Do you guys think they just added a adapter to their pylons/launchers to be able to fit the pod? ( I think this is what they did but I'm not sure)

--Do you guys think their pylons/launchers where actually compatible with the pod and no modification was needed? ( I really doubt this)

--Or do you guys think the ACMI pods where specially modified to fit their pylons/launchers connectors and weapons retaining hardware?

Sorry I was just wandering about this since I always believed that Russian designed launchers or pylons where different to ours in connector, type of power and the way that weapons where retain or hold in place.

[mvsgas]

I'm also wandering how come not all of their pylons are installed. AFAIK, our guys like to train with the aircraft as heavy as it would be in combat and with as close of a drag factor as possible so when you practice you learn the limitation of the aircraft and what you can really do. You can see here:

that even do the pylons are empty they are installed, allowing the pilot to learn how much drag affects the aircraft and how much energy the aircraft would loose while maneuvering in combat, at least I think so. What do you guys think?

[RedTiger]

I'm not very familiar with the Indian AF, but I've noticed that the Russian AF often flew with with nothing on the pylons or no pylons at all! I could understand back when they were really strapped for cash that carrying around ordinance might not be such a good idea. Only sometimes did you see mockups. Maybe India is in the same position.

 

I'm with you, mvsgas...at least put SOMETHING there...even if its just a bunch of oil drums full of rocks! If you don't have anything, then all pylons should be the bare minimum IMO. When are you ever going to fly in combat with no pylons?

[superdunkaroos]

I wander if there are any Indian Air Force website or forums that say how they did in Red Flag against other aircraft types. Any one here speak Hindi?

 

i speak hindi :)

what needs to be translated?

[mvsgas]

i speak hindi :)

what needs to be translated?

I was just wandering if we can find a forums or website that may say how did the IAF did in Red Flag, in terms of how many missions they flew, or any experiences they might have had in Red Flag. Maybe we can learn if they plan to come back to Red Flag, with what aircraft when etc. I have not seen any forums in English ( to say the truth I have not look that much for forums about this ether) so maybe they might be some forums in Hindi that might say something.

[Kusch]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3444204&postcount=149

 

this is from Nellis Spotters.

 

Upcoming Exercises:

Red Flag 08-4 08/11/08-08/22/08.

August 2008

 

Participating units are subject to change

at any time.

 

Red Air

F-15s and F-16s, Nellis AFB, Nev.

 

Blue Air

F-15s, Jacksonville, Fla.

F-15s, Eglin AFB, Fla.

Rafale', French Air Force

 

Air-To-Ground

Rafale', French Air Force

F-15s, Nellis AFB, Nev.

SU-30s, Indian Air Force

F-15Ks, Republic of Korea Air Force

 

Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses

EA-6Bs, NAS Whidbey Island, Wash.

F-16s, Nellis AFB, Nev.

F-16s, Eglin AFB, Fla.

EC-130Hs, Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz.

 

Command and Control; Intelligence,

Surveillance, Reconnaissance

E-3s, Tinker AFB, Okla.

 

Airlift

C-130s, French Air Force

C-17s, McChord AFB, Wash.

 

Air Refueling

KC-135s, unit to be determined

IL-76/78, Indian Air Force

[Mugatu]

ditto for the Rafales.

 

I was just wandering if we can find a forums or website that may say how did the IAF did in Red Flag, in terms of how many missions they flew, or any experiences they might have had in Red Flag. Maybe we can learn if they plan to come back to Red Flag, with what aircraft when etc. I have not seen any forums in English ( to say the truth I have not look that much for forums about this ether) so maybe they might be some forums in Hindi that might say something.

[Teknetinium]

Dont know if that info is right? There was 7 JAS-39s in the game, doing some precision bombing, and Jamming exercises.dont see them in the list?

Edited August 7, 2008 by Teknetium

[mvsgas]

Dont know if that info is right? There was 7 JAS-39s in the game, doing some precision bombing, and Jamming exercises?

Remember that info is for Red Flag 08-04 witch is the next section of the exercise, right? IIRC Red Flag is divided by segment or different scenarios.

 

Edited

Maybe the Gripens left.

http://www.nellis.af.mil/photos/index.asp?page=2

Swedish air force 1st Lt. Erik Normark from the 212nd Fighter Squadron at Norrbotten Wing, Sweden, performs post-flight checks on a JAS 39 Gripen fighter at Nellis AFB, Nev., on 14 July. Seven Gripens and crews are at Nellis for Red Flag 08-3, which runs Jul 19 - Aug. 2. They will be joined by Air Force, Navy, Brazilian and Turkish forces.

Edited August 7, 2008 by mvsgas

[mvsgas]

Here is a photo of F-15K arriving,

you can see the full size image here:

http://www.nellis.af.mil/news/story_media.asp?id=123109682

[Kusch]

Dont know if that info is right? There was 7 JAS-39s in the game, doing some precision bombing, and Jamming exercises.dont see them in the list?

 

Right. And Brasilian F-5.

 

http://nellisspotters.com/08-3Launch.html

 

Edited August 7, 2008 by Kusch

[RvETito]

F-42? Too bad it will be unmanned..

[mvsgas]

An Indian Air Force SU-30 Fighter lands at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., August 6, 2008 for participation in Red Flag 08-4. This marks the first time in history that the Indian Air Force has participated in a Red Flag exercise here at Nellis. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Senior Airman Larry

 

http://www.nellis.af.mil/news/story_media.asp?id=123109974

[mvsgas]

French air force trains at Luke

http://www.aetc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123109459

[Kusch]

Awesome picture:

 

http://www.fencecheck.com/news/French_Air_Force_Rafales_Deploy_to_Luke_AFB/

 

[mvsgas]

Kush , you always find great photos man thanks.

 

P.S.

Brand new Rafales against block 25 F-16 with over 4000 airframes hours and brand new pilots with little experience (maybe). I don't think the F-16 had a chance. What do you guys think?

Edited August 9, 2008 by mvsgas

[Pilotasso]

Eurofighters been defeated by block 15 F-16's in scripted WVR exercises over here. So yes, the pilot skill still makes the difference on non stealth planes.

[mvsgas]

I thought Portugal's block 15 F-16 had block 50/52 avionics and block 25 engines, is that correct?

Edited August 10, 2008 by mvsgas
Just an aftre tought

[Pilotasso]

We have a mix of OCU aircraft and modern MLU's. The Engine is the F100-PW-220E on all aircraft.

[wsoul2k]

F-5's can't even stay in a turn with an F-22 at altitude ... what are you talking about? ;)

We only have one pic of a raptor in a gunsight, and a that, out of all the WVR engagements there's something like 2-3 raptor kills vs. how many bandit kills? ;)

GG you know how realistic this kind of exercise are? Im asking this because the F-5EM from Brazil in the end have a very good kill ratio against the agressors [ F-15 65º Squadron and F-16 64º Squadron] the win ratio was near 60% above

 

The F-5EM in nellis arent yet fully upgraded lacking the HMD and Data Link