Share your A2A Tactics

[GTengineer]

As a noob I have been trying to hone my air-to-air skills. Now I am still debating what is the best way to approach an enemy because I find every approach I have tried has positive and negative aspects. I will share what I have learned so far, so I can get some criticism and others to share their own.

 

(BTW this is with all realistic settings, no external view, padlock or text labels)

 

1) Approach from a low position:

Good: Better visibility of enemy missiles against the darker blue sky, should also be more difficult for them to get a lock on you?

Bad: All things being equal the enemy comes within range of his missile sooner.

 

2) Approach from a high position

Good: Better range

Bad: Bad visibility of enemy need to pitch nose down or side to side to keep track of all enemy planes visually. Planes can also be more difficult to see against the terrain (depending on camouflage skin). If enemy is very low to deck, it may be very difficult to lock him up.

 

3) BVR Engagement

If enemy has same or better missile range than me, I try to charge head on with afterburner to close in within range quick. Even if he fires a missile I try to hold steady and stay with it until I can fire my own. Once I fire I turn the plane and put my opponent on my 2-3 o'clock or 10-9 o'clock to make his missile work while dispensing chaff every 1-2 seconds and keeping an eye for him to appear visually. I am ok with evading missiles IF I can see a plume, I will reverse direction right before it hits (after my maneuver above). This works well with the R-33 which come in high and is very visible. However here is my main problem, how do you know if you are still being tracked by a missile that has gone ballistic with no plume (is there even a way to know)? Is there a pattern at all to the RWR warnings? BTW within this context I am referring solely on active or semi-active radar missiles.

 

Looking forward to hearing your tactics,

Cheers

Edited August 1, 2008 by GTengineer

[RvETito]

Fly 10m in the canyons and pop heaters at anything that moves. Soon you'll become ace number 1 :D

[GGTharos]

I'll leave other to answer the other two questions.

 

If you launch your missile and it happens to be an active, crank like you do to put the bandit on your radar gimbals and perform a vertical S (up, down, up down, yadda) to kill off the incoming missile's energy. Once your missile goes active, get below the bandit's altitude and enter the notch (put him on your 3-9) ... try to maintain corner, don't go stupid-fast. It does absolutely nothing for you in LO except when running away, or in some rushed intercepts which tend to be rare.

 

Once you notch him, stay there until the lock warning drops. You've just trashed the bandit's missile if it was SARH, and you never needed to see where it was. No chaff needed (missiles don't see your countermeasures until they are inside 7nm anyway, so try to time when you start dispensing)

 

If you suddenly get an ARH coming at you, put it on your beam and hopefully you'll notch it (if you remembered to set yourself up so that you can force it to look down) and pump a lot of chaff out - combine this with some high-g, out-of-plane maneuvering if the missile is close, but take care not to overspeed (you will not get max g out of the aircraft if you do) and ONLY pull max-g when you think it's the 'final moment' ... otherwise you'll find yourself floating in air like a baloon with no airspeed, ie. zero ability to dodge.

 

Is there a way to know if a missile's still tracking you? For SARH, no. Not really if the rocket's burned out - you just can't see it.

 

For ARH, you'll keep getting the launch warning from the missile itself. You need to figure out when, despite the warning, you can re-attack because the missile, despite locking you up, has too little energy to match your maneuver anyway.

 

Most importantly, do not panic and perform all this stuff calmly - have a plan for how you're going to deal with it AHEAD of time and follow that plan. If you plan is wrong (or if you are unlucky) you'll get shot down. If it is because your plan was bad, adjust your plan and try again.

 

To make what I am trying to say perfectly clear: Do not panic. Paniky, wild dodging might work occasionally, but you'll learn nothing from it and it will only serve to make you more defensive.

 

3) BVR Engagement

If enemy has same or better missile range than me, I try to charge head on with afterburner to close in within range quick. Even if he fires a missile I try to hold steady and stay with it until I can fire my own. Once I fire I turn the plane and put my opponent on my 2-3 o'clock or 10-9 o'clock to make his missile work while dispensing chaff every 1-2 seconds and keeping an eye for him to appear visually. I am ok with evading missiles IF I can see a plume, I will reverse direction right before it hits (after my maneuver above). This works well with the R-33 which come in high and is very visible. However here is my main problem, how do you know if you are still being tracked by a missile that has gone ballistic with no plume (is there even a way to know)? Is there a pattern at all to the RWR warnings? BTW within this context I am referring solely on active or semi-active radar missiles.

 

Looking forward to hearing your tactics,

Cheers

Edited August 1, 2008 by GGTharos

[159th_Viper]

Fly 10m in the canyons and pop heaters at anything that moves. Soon you'll become ace number 1 :D

 

And to don your Klingon Cloaking device, drop below 10m and you're good to go - The Invisible Man :joystick: :D

 

:pilotfly:

[GTengineer]

If you suddenly get an ARH coming at you, put it on your beam and hopefully you'll notch it (if you remembered to set yourself up so that you can force it to look down) and pump a lot of chaff out.

 

GGTharos, good pointers but what exactly do you mean by beam? are you referring to my 3 or 9 o'clock position?

[GGTharos]

Yes. Your 3-9 is your beam.

 

From there you get get expressions like 'beam to the notch' (because in order to enter the notch, you have to be lower than the bandit -and- put him on your 3-9).

 

 

 

GGTharos, good pointers but what exactly do you mean by beam? are you referring to my 3 or 9 o'clock position?

[A.S]

saving tons of words..(cuz it would be)....

 

read alot...search alot...try to apply this and you ideas..

 

and fly alot 1vs1 BVR ..ALOT !!

[Pilotasso]

As a noob I have been trying to hone my air-to-air skills. Now I am still debating what is the best way to approach an enemy because I find every approach I have tried has positive and negative aspects. I will share what I have learned so far, so I can get some criticism and others to share their own.

 

(BTW this is with all realistic settings, no external view, padlock or text labels)

 

1) Approach from a low position:

Good: Better visibility of enemy missiles against the darker blue sky, should also be more difficult for them to get a lock on you?

Bad: All things being equal the enemy comes within range of his missile sooner.

 

2) Approach from a high position

Good: Better range

Bad: Bad visibility of enemy need to pitch nose down or side to side to keep track of all enemy planes visually. Planes can also be more difficult to see against the terrain (depending on camouflage skin). If enemy is very low to deck, it may be very difficult to lock him up.

 

3) BVR Engagement

If enemy has same or better missile range than me, I try to charge head on with afterburner to close in within range quick. Even if he fires a missile I try to hold steady and stay with it until I can fire my own. Once I fire I turn the plane and put my opponent on my 2-3 o'clock or 10-9 o'clock to make his missile work while dispensing chaff every 1-2 seconds and keeping an eye for him to appear visually. I am ok with evading missiles IF I can see a plume, I will reverse direction right before it hits (after my maneuver above). This works well with the R-33 which come in high and is very visible. However here is my main problem, how do you know if you are still being tracked by a missile that has gone ballistic with no plume (is there even a way to know)? Is there a pattern at all to the RWR warnings? BTW within this context I am referring solely on active or semi-active radar missiles.

 

Looking forward to hearing your tactics,

Cheers

 

Your talking about multiplayer or solo flight? Because the AI is pretty dumb and after a while you learn to defeat it always.

 

If your talking about multiplayer, you have to take 2 facts:

 

1) Migs are dangerous and carry the best missiles in this game.

2)Migs are even more dangerous when AWACS is included in the mission.

3) all russian planes have datalink to AWACS, no american planes in LO have this.

4) not all this is realistic and has been a consequence of unforseen code flaws.

 

 

 

with point 1 you can still deal with them because the mig still needs to lock his antenna on you to fire a BVR missile (this holds true for Su-27 and Su-33 except they dont have active radar missiles), while the F-15 can fire the AIM-120 without locking the antenna to the target (thus not giving a launch warning). Then the migs will have warning usualy when the missiles near them.

 

with point 2 the rules change a bit. Migs are harder to spot and it is more likely that they will guess they have been fired upon if they see you on their intercept course at a given range (usualy 20 miles). time at wich they usualy turn to 1 side wich makes your missiles need to travel further than first predicted at head to head, thus falling short. They take advantage of this to shoot their R-77's wich are faster and longer ranged. Those missiles might reach you even if yours didnt.

 

Its like holding a smaller kid by his forhead while he tries to punch you in vain but thin air. :D

 

Against Su-27's and Su-33's the story is slightly different since they need to maintain lock while the mig can either fly off 90 degrees to you or simply do 180 and run while his missiles guide.

 

 

your tactics will depend on what plane you have. But I advise you never fly f-15 down low in the hills, where russian planes will have you shot anywhere between 20 miles down to 1 by infra red missiles and sensors, not giving you warning at all, while yours wont have any greater range than that and you will always give lock warning.

 

Point 3 will make this even worse.

 

 

Theres no way I can explain everything at once so you have to try different things and expose your doubts at a time.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Pilotasso

[504Goon]

Did this just turn into "my aircraft is worse than yours" thread?

 

GTengineer, you should probably check Ironhand's site, it has a whole lot of very informative training videos to start with. :)

 

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/index.html

[Frostie]

Nice assessment re. multiplayer Pilotasso.

But I think its more like one of those dreams where a smaller kid is holding you by the head and you can't get a swing in.:D

 

Unfortunately where an AWACS and mountains is concerned BVR tactics seem to go right out the window in favour of something more arcade. Superior SA is granted too easily to the tactless, while those that work for it are punished. And LO's Mig is the perfect tool to take advantage of this.

[GTengineer]

Good tips, all thanks. I guess I now have a bunch of new things to try out ;)

[RedTiger]

GGTharos' and (504)Goon's suggestions are probably the best place for a beginner to start. I just want to add one thing in case this becomes a dogpile of comments about multiplayer craziness. I hope you'll keep this in mind;

 

LOMAC is what you make of it.

 

You are not doomed to become good enough to kill the AI BVR in your sleep, nor are you doomed to play air quake with people who treat the sim like its an arcade game. Always trying to get a kill in the most adverse and brag-worthy conditions, or sacrificing realism for being flashy so you can trick someone online is missing a lot of what LOMAC has to offer.

 

Use the mission editor to its fullest and lay everything on THICK. Google "Lock On Mission Randomizer" and get familiar with it. With the randomizer you can make things REALLY THICK. A lot of the AI's problems go out the window when you have a very busy and dangerous environment full of friendly and enemy forces. Add in self-observed goals and boundaries and it gets even better! Stay as realistic as possible...not because its an "IWIN button", just do it for the sake of doing it "right"! In fact, sometimes realism is easier than playing LOMAC world, especially for the blue side. ;) How you fly and how you get a kill is just as meaningful as actually getting it.

[GTengineer]

Red, I always actually fly as realistically as possible. Like I said I don't use external views, padlock, labels or anything like that. I also don't make it my goal to go up and kick arse. Whenever I take to the air my main goal is to make it back alive in one piece. I absolutely hate ejecting, I would take 5 missions with zero kills making it back safe, than 1 missions with 20 kills and having to eject. I get a kick of doing things the "right" way, not the game way :)

[504Goon]

RedTiger, i couldn't agree more with your points!

 

With good mission planning, and especially with a good group of people, you can have a realistic experience of what it is flying in combat environment. Sure, the AI has it's fault of being predictable, but the more events and stuff you have going on in a mission, the harder it is to predict what the AI is going to do. And to get even more fun out of it, get someone to fly and train with you, as you'll probably notice in some time, the AI wingman isn't really the brightest guy around..:)

[S77th-konkussion]

GGTharos' and (504)Goon's suggestions are probably the best place for a beginner to start. I just want to add one thing in case this becomes a dogpile of comments about multiplayer craziness. I hope you'll keep this in mind;

 

LOMAC is what you make of it.

 

You are not doomed to become good enough to kill the AI BVR in your sleep, nor are you doomed to play air quake with people who treat the sim like its an arcade game. Always trying to get a kill in the most adverse and brag-worthy conditions, or sacrificing realism for being flashy so you can trick someone online is missing a lot of what LOMAC has to offer.

 

 

 

Do what?

[GTengineer]

Has anyone had problems launching LMR in Vista x64? I installed it to the default directory but when I try to open/select a mission source by clicking "...' it gives me an error saying "FATAL ERROR: unable to launch parser". Does anyone know how to fix this?

[Peyoteros]

Funny thread, It's like tell me your account number and the pin.... yeah right... I'm afraid you will have to open your own account and start saving money...

[GTengineer]

Funny thread, It's like tell me your account number and the pin.... yeah right... I'm afraid you will have to open your own account and start saving money...

 

what? are you actually serious are you that insecure??

 

OH NOES! a noob gonan give away my uber secretz and I will losa!!! It's a GAME get a grip :rolleyes:

Edited August 3, 2008 by GTengineer

[Peyoteros]

The only people I share tactics with is my squad. You learn things by flying and getting involved. Copish? And secondly it's a Sim not a game. And if you wanna learn things you should be flying not typing. We'll talk about tactics when you have couple of thousands of hours airborne...

Edited August 3, 2008 by Peyoteros

[GTengineer]

The only people I share tactics with is my squad. You learn things by flying and getting involved. Copish? And secondly it's a Sim not a game. And if you wanna learn things you should be flying not typing.

 

 

As much as you wanna make yourself believe it .... it is a GAME.

I guess there is one you in every bunch, get a life. If you don't like the thread GTFO. BTW it's capish.... CAPISH?

Edited August 3, 2008 by GTengineer

[Peyoteros]

Bite me. I'll see you in the sky

[RedTiger]

GTengineer, while I agree with your overall feeling on this (I like sharing and being helpful and I don't like the notion of squads cloistering away information), you're going about this all wrong. I don't really care what you do, but people here don't appreciate that type of attitude whether you have a legitimate point or not.

 

@Peyoteros

 

Geez man, he was just asking for some tips! It wasn't so long ago that I was new and had NO idea what I was supposed to do. Flight sim manuals are great at explaining button-pushing but give you jack squat about the basics of ACM. A simple chapter on F-pole and A-pole would go a long way and its something I hope to see in the coming DCS modules. Without nice people on forums and websites like Ironhand's I would have been lost for a long time. I can understand your point of view too, actually. You want to play your squad's tactics close to the vest. I don't think he wants to know how you guys work, he just wants the basics. :)

 

I've seen people banned on forums because things like this and I've also seen people get the wrong idea about communities because of things like this. They're asking perfectly normal questions, someone provokes them into getting defensive, they come on heavy handed and say some things they probably shouldn't and BOOM...banned or they pull a "screw you guys, I'm going home!" like Eric Cartman. Its unfortunate because the person who provokes them usually knows to keep their cool and they get to stick around.

[Peyoteros]

I know what you mean man, but I have some experience with sharing tactics. It happened long time ago in BF2 (back then I didn't knew about the existence of LOMAC).I understood something about flying in that game by flying very long hours and started to enjoy kicking butt. Some of my mates, total noob, got the joystick and came to fly in BF. I shared what I understood from my experience, so he can enjoy the game, few minutes later he was typing in global chat to everyone (trying to be friendly and stuff I guess)... Couple of minutes latter it was used against me. Since then, I'm suspicious about sharing, as this might turn against you in couple of minutes... Anyway, no disrespect, but he should go to Flankertraining.com

Edited August 3, 2008 by Peyoteros

[GGTharos]

GTengineer, while I agree with your overall feeling on this (I like sharing and being helpful and I don't like the notion of squads cloistering away information), you're going about this all wrong. I don't really care what you do, but people here don't appreciate that type of attitude whether you have a legitimate point or not.

 

I think it was just directed at one person. Most squads are happy to share. They just might not share their playbook (ie. their chosen sequence of events using those same tactics) - but not sharing the basics is just lame ... I mean, I don't get it. :)

[Peyoteros]

I think it was just directed at one person. Most squads are happy to share. They just might not share their playbook (ie. their chosen sequence of events using those same tactics) - but not sharing the basics is just lame ... I mean, I don't get it. :)

 

Basics are all over the place all you need is Google.