A-10C AAR

[Caldera]

Hey all,

 

I hope I am placing this in the correct forum section.  For some reason the topics I post seemed to be posted in the wrong location and they get moved.

 

I am struggling with Air to Air Refueling.  The boom operator AI just is amazing. 

 

It seems like you get one shot at refueling then you have to wait on a cool down of some sort, because the nincompoop boom operator AI seems to go "schizo".  I know there is some video clipping issues and that does not help to see the refueling nozzle actually inside the cockpit.  To say the least, that is a bit disorientating!

 

I know that my skills need improving but, in general, I find it baffling as to what is actually happening.

 

Anyways, please take a look a this...

 

AAR Video that I made

 

...and please let me know where I need to be educated.

 

Caldera

Edited March 2, 2021 by Caldera

[Lange_666]

After my first attempts, i changed the stick and throttle input curves to be a lot less responsive. Made a big difference.

But then if you go combat after the refueling, you need those curves back and going into the axis settings to change them each time is not a great solution.

For example the F-16 has other stick input (a lot smoother) when the re-fueling door is open so i did +/- the same for the A-10.

In T.A.R.G.E.T. i did set up 3 different axis curves which i can change with the press of a button on the stick and i use them depending on what i need to do.

AAR became a lot easier after that but... if i let go practice, i pay for that the next time i need some fuel sucked out of the tanker.

[=52d= Skip]

6 hours ago, Caldera said:

Hey all,

 

I hope I am placing this in the correct forum section.  For some reason the topics I post seemed to be posted in the wrong location and they get moved.

 

I am struggling with Air to Air Refueling.  The boom operator AI just is amazing. 

 

It seems like you get one shot at refueling then you have to wait on a cool down of some sort, because the nincompoop boom operator AI seems to go "schizo".  I know there is some video clipping issues and that does not help to see the refueling nozzle actually inside the cockpit.  To say the least, that is a bit disorientating!

 

I know that my skills need improving but, in general, I find it baffling as to what is actually happening.

 

Anyways, please take a look a this...

 

AAR Video that I made

 

...and please let me know where I need to be educated.

 

Caldera

 

 

There is no doubt that the whole Refueling AI would benefit from a rework, but for now we have to make due with what we have...

Here´s my 0.02$

- You and the Tanker are too slow*

- Your Plane looks not trimmed

- Your Airbrake is partially open

- You are impatient

- You are getting frustrated and even more impatient

 

My suggestions:

- Take your time

- Trim your Plane

- Before even trying to refuel fly in Formation with the Tanker, and not just for 2-3 Minutes

- Once you can do that fly in Formation at the Pre-Contact Position

- Next, make contact once & as soon as you disconnect call it quits for this day - come back tomorrow though doing the same

- Keep on doing that and soon enough it´ll "click" and you´ll refuel Zero to Full in one go

 

In the end it´s just a matter of training really. Keep on trying and eventually it´ll work.

 

*Try attached Mission using a faster speed. Be advised tho that you need to tune in to the Tanker Frequency (see Briefing Text)

CAU_Freeflight.miz

[Rogue.]

7 hours ago, Caldera said:

 

It seems like you get one shot at refueling then you have to wait on a cool down of some sort, because the nincompoop boom operator AI seems to go "schizo".

 

 

If you break off after 'contact' you need to recycle the slipway door to reset the ready light on the RH side of your HUD or the boom operator ignores you.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Rogue2635

[Caldera]

Thanks all for your input!

 

I have watched allot of refueling videos.  Most do it perfectly, but they don't really tell you how to do it.  Typcally, small movements and keep the controls moving at all times is the most common advice.  For me, that was not that helpful.  What really helped me the most was a close formation flying video that I watched made by DCS Debrief.  He talked about specific techniques.  Stuff like, for small heading changes use "roll on roll off and wait, roll on roll off to stop movement at the correct heading", for small speed changes "push / pull the throttle then return to datum and wait".  That was a good video for me to watch and had nothing to do with refueling.  Of course, I am still working on those skills.

 

10 hours ago, Rogue2635 said:

 

If you break off after 'contact' you need to recycle the slipway door to reset the ready light on the RH side of your HUD or the boom operator ignores you.

 

 

 

Ahaa!  Ahaa!   This tidbit of information is what I have been looking for.

 

Catching this earlier would have been helpful and allot less frustrating:

For successive contacts, you must cycle the aerial refuel system by pressing the refuel/reset button (Nosewheel Steering button) or closing and opening the slipway door.

 

The problem is, the boom operator kind of forgets what they are doing after a bit even if a contact is not made.  That is why I thought were was some sort of a cool down required.  In general, the manual is a bit confusing.

 

I have been doing quite a bit of close formation flying with the tanker not intending to refuel.  The two biggest problems I have, I have had from day one.  One problem is speed control.  I can fly in formation  pretty good until I get behind the speed maintaining curve, where overshoots start to occur.  Then the attitude wobbles start.  Etc... The other problem is the boom operator AI.  A lesser problem has been trying to figure out the location behind the tanker that I needed to be in for the nozzle to connect.  Mostly because the boom operator does not seem consistent.  When the boom raises up  before connection is a bit disorientating.

 

I can practice my flying skills, but i needed to understand the AI.

 

The fight with the boom operator AI, it has gotten extremely frustrating.  Plus, like I said, I don't really have a good idea where the boom is supposed to be.  I watch most of my refueling video tracks.  The boom connects then disconnects, which is my fault.  Then I start getting stabbed by the refueling nozzle all around the cockpit and canopy for my further efforts.  I get stuck on the support wire.  I get stuck inside the tanker.  Believe me, I have flown for many nm with the refueling nozzle stuffed in the refueling door opening or some other part of the nose.  All the while, no connections are made with me trying to outsmart the goofyness.  And, just being baffled the whole time by what is happening.

 

Thanks again, I will try all of your suggestions.

Caldera

Edited March 2, 2021 by Caldera

[Rudel_chw]

23 minutes ago, Caldera said:

... What really helped me the most was a close formation flying video that I watched made by DCS Debrief.  He talked about specific techniques.  ...

 

 

Thanks a lot, I didn't knew about that YT Channel .. very useful 

[Caldera]

Hey all,

 

First:

3 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Thanks a lot, I didn't knew about that YT Channel .. very useful 

 

Thanks, that guy is pretty good at explanation and demonstration.  He does a nice job.  I noticed that he also does some  BFM instruction (as he would say for DCS game only).  So much easier to learn by listening and viewing.  As opposed to reading Fighter Combat (Robert L Shaw) multiple times like I did way back when.

 

 

I made another video. Please, I would greatly appreciate comments and critique.  Tell me what you think.

 

AAR Success and Failure

 

My Comments:

• The first attempt I intentionally left the slipway door closed as a warm up run
• I was generally a little low during approach based on the angle of the boom
• After connecting (contact) a my altitude dropped as I lost my reference point to the tanker
• Altitude control - The boom was in the green and I was disconnected once
• Speed control  - This lead to the rest of my disconnects
• The AI flubbed at least once

 

 

15 hours ago, =52d= Skip said:

- You and the Tanker are too slow*

 

*Try attached Mission using a faster speed. Be advised tho that you need to tune in to the Tanker Frequency (see Briefing Text)

 

 

I tried setting the tanker to 350 (I think GS), but it still flew at 183 IAS and I am not sure why.  I did not try your mission yet.  My head is in information saturation for the time being and I did not want to work through learning your mission.

 

14 hours ago, Rogue2635 said:

If you break off after 'contact' you need to recycle the slipway door to reset the ready light on the RH side of your HUD or the boom operator ignores you.

 

THIS! 

 

Made all the difference in the world.  I did noticed that the AI still flubbed at least once after I did reset the slipway door.

 

A quick question, when the tanker automatically stop filling?

 

Thanks again!

Caldera

[draconus]

In formation and AAR where two aircraft move in space simulataneously think of it like orbiter docking into space station. You just make small, short pssst corrections with attitude rocket motor, then you make another one to correct more or counter the first one

The tutorials rarely go into details how to move your stick in AAR as this is purely muscle memory and practice, practice, practice.

If you need more fine throttle control use the curves on the throttle axis.

Whenever you hear "return pre-contact" from boom operator during AAR you need to call "ready pre-contact" again or you will fail at reconnecting.

Bind that refueling door so you don't have to look down.

The refueling stops when the aircraft no longer is able to take more fuel (it can depend on the aircraft settings, ie. external/L/R tanks to be filled), you disconnect, there is no more fuel left to give from the tanker or the tanker's task is no longer "refueling" (waypoint, trigger, damage...).

You're already there - you can connect and stay steady - that's great achievement. Now it's only finetuning and perfecting

Why do you keep on showing us external view?

Edited March 3, 2021 by draconus

[Caldera]

draconus,

 

12 hours ago, draconus said:

Why do you keep on showing us external view?

 

I guess for my personal benefit.  It helps me determine alignment and distance to the refueling nozzle when I am watching the video.  Plus, it just looks just really really cool don't you think?

 

12 hours ago, draconus said:

The refueling stops when the aircraft no longer is able to take more fuel (it can depend on the aircraft settings, ie. external/L/R tanks to be filled), you disconnect, there is no more fuel left to give from the tanker or the tanker's task is no longer "refueling" (waypoint, trigger, damage...)

 

It seems to me that there are a few more conditions that I have recently noticed.

 

The ones that I am sure of are:

• Boom too long or too short (red yellow green zones)
• Boom too far left or right from center
• Boom too far up or down from median
• Boom operator dozes off and hits the emergency disconnect button

 

The color marks on the boom are obvious the others just happen.  I am just curious, do you happen to know what these other values might be?

 

As for my comment "Boom operator dozes off".  In my last flight it appeared that the three of the top four comments above were OK.  The boom was green, and I just got disconnected.  This happened to me at least two times.  My gas tank had ~ 8000 lbms of fuel in it (A-10C).  I have no clue why.  When it disconnects it never notifies me over the radio.  I just suddenly see the nozzle floating in space.

 

I am aware that if I was flying perfectly during refueling process these issues will not be apparent.

 

The Modes of the Boom AI that I have noticed:

• When I am at the right distance the boom will rise up, signifying to me that the Boom of Doom Operator is awake and ready to connect?
• The nozzle has some sort of  spherical zone it controls to after a bit of a time delay, it starts to twitch and more or less aims for the refueling port?
• If I miss by too much or take too long the Boom of Doom Operator will stab my cockpit one to three times, signifying to me that I should back off and try again?
• When I am actually refueling the Boom of Doom Operator plays Tiddly Winks?
• The Boom of Doom Operator will release the nozzle mysteriously and adhere to strict radio silence?

 

Thanks again,

Caldera

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Caldera

[Caldera]

Transfer Complete  ---  Disconnect

 

Caldera

Edited March 4, 2021 by Caldera

[Lange_666]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

Transfer Complete  ---  Disconnect

 

That's the result of your practice.

[xoxen]

For me it helped to watch the tanker and not the boom after connection. The rest is practice practice practice, once you found a good setting for your stick axis curcature etc.

Today I make a refueling in the Hornet without disconnect.......

Edited March 5, 2021 by xoxen

[Caldera]

Hey all,

 

As of today the Boom of Doom operator officially hates me again (feelings mutual).  Maybe had I thought (vocalized) too many bad thoughts in the past.  No matter how long I have the nose of my beloved A-10 basically inserted into the refueling nozzle or vice versa, he / she refuses to cooperate.  I mean, the nozzle is shoved directly into the refueling slide under the cowling.  So I back off and reset the refueling slide door again and again.  I retry and I retry and I have no luck.  So we fly along that way for miles and then, just for insult, the Boom of Doom Operator tells me that I need to rejoin. 

 

"Whiskey    Tango     Foxtrot    Dude...   I am joined, rejoined and everything else in between.  You need to wake up!   And just so you know,  I am not buying any beers at the club tonight."

 

Frustrated...

 

RAMMING SPEED!

 

Caldera

Edited March 6, 2021 by Caldera

[Caldera]

Hello,

 

I figured something out today that has been plaguing me.  As I said earlier the Boom of Doom Operator (BOBO) will pretty much out the blue say "Return Pre-Contact".  Today he said it just as I had indeed made contact (multiple attempts).  In the past, after he said that he would just ignore me.  If I start the film right there, this had been happening to me and I was clueless as too why.  Eventually, I learned that restarting the mission was the only way to get BOBO to stop being so annoying.

 

So today when it happened I contacted the tanker on the radio again.  Funny thing, the only tanker radio option is Abort Refueling.  Because of this, I had been ignoring doing that very thing and proceeded to try try again.  (fail fail again)  I just thought that I had a serious case of Failure to Refuel (FTR) and I needed more practice.

 

Today I selected that option.  As I recall, there was no response from the tanker.  Starting the process over, I got the tanker on the radio again and I re-selected Intent to Refuel.   When at that point the tanker directed me to move into the pre-contact (or some such) position.  Hello there, it is still me still right behind you the whole time!   It was as if the tanker had just seen me for the first time that day (week month ever). 

 

Probably common knowledge?   Oops...

 

Another thing that I noticed today that had also been there the whole time.  After I make contact and then I flub it (FTR) the refueling status indicator changes from Ready to Disconnect.   There are no verbal messages from the tanker.  At any rate, that is a good clue that I need to reset the refueling door before I try again.

 

Caldera

[scoobie]

Hmm... yesterday I tried AAR in A-10C and I swear something was just different than normally. My AAR was very bad yesterday, I'm not sure why (I might have been just tired, I don't know), but radio comms seemed different, too - just like Caldera said above.

 

At one point I disconnected from the boom and the operator IMMEDIATELY said "return pre-contact" - when my receptacle was a foot away from the boom's tip.

IIRC, previously the guy would say it only when the plane got too far away from the boom.

Number two - when he said "return pre-contact", there was only: "Abort refuel" and "Exit" in the radio menu, "ready pre-contact" wasn't there. So, for the lack of the option in the menu I just tried to reconnect to the boom and it worked: "contact, you're taking fuel". AFAICR, previously you HAD to choose "ready pre-contact" after "return pre-contact" and then connect, otherwise the fuel wouldn't flow.
So... it seemed different yesterday.

Maybe ED have reworked something about AAR recently? No idea.

[Caldera]

scoobie,

 

I have no point of reference for "I swear something was just different than normally." as I am learning AAR for the first time.

 

Caldera

[Caldera]

Hello,

 

I made another video mostly to illustrate that BOBO seems to be behaving today.  At one point I was told to "Return Pre-Contact".  It was right after my first try where I had un-intentionally left the refuel door closed.  I was way out of wack and it did not surprise me when I was given that command.  I also noticed that when I got the tanker back up on the radio there were was another option other than Abort Refueling.  That option was Ready Pre-Contact.  Yeah!

 

More success less failure

 

I hope the comments by others and my video help others and I am not wasting my time.  

 

After I learned to make contact the problem was maintaining some point of reference on the tanker so that I could maintain the correct position.  Generally during my practice for a long time, I was too low.  If I only see the bottom of the tanker I am too low.  From that position my only reference is the length of the boom and the refueling lights on the nose of the tanker.   It is very hard to maintain speed because a loss of altitude or a loss of speed visually appear about the same.   The problem is that a loss of altitude actually increases speed.  So from there the wobble starts.

 

I couple of times in the video I held the correct reference point(s) on the tanker.  In the video while I am connected notice the more or less triangle shaped blue sky just above both wings of the tanker.  This is the area of view under the cockpit frame and on top of the wings of the tanker.  I try to keep the two blue areas about the same size.  This reference point view places me at much better position to maintain contact with the boom.  I generally maintain that visual reference and also try to maintain the boom in the green zone of its length.  This reference point provides excellent altitude and side to side recognition and control.

 

My comments:

• My first attempt I forgot to open the refueling door
• I sped up video a couple of times to save time
• My second attempt I was too low and when I actually made contact it surprised me
• I had some flubs with resetting the refueling door
• I got to fast (impatient) and had to use my air brakes
• I got to fast and rammed the tanker (Should have aimed for BOBO's control booth and then fire walled the throttles!)
• Best to re-trim at a safe distance behind the tanker
• I do not modify my control curves to refuel I have always used my combat curves

Caldera

 

 

 

[Lange_666]

I can't remember (but it's been a while so an update might have changed it) the need to play with the refuel door to reset the tanker sequence. I open it and keep it open until done.

Not playing with the control surfaces is a good idea since you can't do that in real life either but you have to get a lot smoother on your controls for big succes. Now, you're still way to twitchy when behind that tanker. Keep training!!

However, changed control settings exist in real life too like on the F-16. When you open the refueldoor it changes the stick input values for smoother control.

I didn't know this until i left the tanker once without closing the refueldoor on the F-16, rolled upside down and pulled the stick for an inverted loop. I ended up smashing into the ground. Didn't understand why but reading a bit revealed the changed input curves with the door open. Since then i made my own input curve change through TM's target on aircraft who don't have that feature.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Lange_666

[Caldera]

Hi Lange,

 

The refueling door?  Yeah...  The manual says that if you are connected then disconnect it needs to be reset.  What that actually means I do not know.  Because the manual...  Draconus suggested that I map it to my HOTAS and reset it if I disconnect, which I do / have done.

 

Out of the blue BOBO still has a habit of disconnecting me the with annoying "Return to Pre-Contact".    I notice it happening to me mainly just after I make contact (twice yesterday).

 

I have been working on my twitch and it is getting better.  The closer to the tanker I get the greater the relative motion.   I have to really fight my natural reactions.  I have been training to be able to refuel other aircraft eventually.  I am talking about the basket feeders.  So after I refuel I have been trying to place my nose right up to either of the tanker's outboard engine cooling air exhaust nozzle (I think that is what it is) and to reduce my twitch.   The relative motion from this position is extreme.

 

But ahh, the joy of an immortal tanker.  Right before both my wings fell off!

 

 

 

Caldera

 

[Caldera]

Hey Guys,

 

A couple of things and, of course, questions.

 

I have continued to practice AAR.  What once seemed impossible is now just reasonably stressful and more or less routine.  Because I am practicing, I have started the flight with low fuel state and targeting for a complete fill-up by staying connected the entire time.  Almost there...

 

I never thought about this before until I could actually do just about that.  In that process I am also adding 7000-8000 lbms to the aircraft. 

 

When staying connected for a long run the nose starts getting heavier and heavier.  I want to instinctively trim it up.  I have tried doing that, which often will lead to a disconnect.  I have also tried trimming for nose light before I start refueling and that seems to work a bit better. 

 

I know that there is no Olympic Gold Medal for the fastest refueling time, but I was just wondering:

• How do you manage trim while connected?
• What is the typical load of fuel that you would might want to accept?

For the latter I have no point of reference really when an A-10 wants to refuel. 

 

For example like: 

• To stay in the sweet spot for fuel vs weight
• Just enough to RTB  (On fumes seems like a bad choice)
• Crossing an ocean for engaging in combat on foreign soil

No where in this game so far have I ever really needed more gas than I already had on board.

 

FWIW

 

BODO (Boom of Doom Operator) will still randomly disconnect a perfectly connected refueling nozzle and order "Return Pre-Contact".  To be the most annoying, he does this 250 milliseconds after you have just connected.   I have been just ignoring him and cycling the refueling door closed then back to open and then re-positioning to continue refueling.  BODO must have a severe case of ADHD, because he just forgets all that and goes ahead and re-connects as per he should.  In fact, whenever BODO goes into his "I really need a nap!" phase where he incessantly can not hit the slide or the broad side of a barn, simply cycling the refueling door seems to snap him out of it.  WAKE UP BODO!

 

Caldera

Edited March 30, 2021 by Caldera

[scoobie]

I'm not a pro, so take it with a truck of salt.

4 hours ago, Caldera said:

How do you manage trim while connected?

I don't And until now I wasn't aware it could be a problem. You're right - you may increase the weight by even around 10,000 lbs and... I never retrim. Perhaps... the increasing weight is compensated kind of "automatically" by gradual thrust increase? If so, then you don't even notice it, because you're working with throttles constantly, over the period of 3 minutes. My experience is that once I've stayed connected for a long time, say a minute, it almost always mean I'll stay connected for another 2 minutes, until she's full. So, apparently the increasing weight doesn't spoil the fun.
OR... staying at the same trim does make it harder, but I just got used to it and have become oblivious of the problem? I have no idea.
I'd like to hear from someone more experienced, maybe I'm making the job harder for myself than necessary?

 

As for the "proper" amount of fuel to take, you've sort of answered your own question. AAR in the Hawg (in DCS at least) is more of a hobby, than necessity

 

[draconus]

There's no auto throttle adjustment. Apparently the fuel is well balanced in the fuselage and wings so doesn't affect CG that much. You should trim based on feel on the fly. If you don't feel you need to - you don't trim.

A-10 would need very long loiter time to get near empty. IRL it's used mostly to keep them up for hours on station. You can simulate also a mission that you airstart at one side of the map like at the end of a long ferry and need to AAR just a bit before getting to destination.

[scoobie]

CG! That must be the correct answer, thanks! Didn't think about that.
Yes, not "auto throttle" per se, obviously. "Me English cud bee weller". What I meant was that since you're adjusting throttles up and down constantly during the whole process, probably near the end of AAR, when she's heavy, your throttles are a bit more forward on average (more thrust) than when she was light - but since you don't realize that, it feels as it was "automatic" or automagic.

[draconus]

Yes, that's right, you have to use more throttle to stay at the same alt and speed with more weight.

[Dragon1-1]

6 hours ago, scoobie said:

As for the "proper" amount of fuel to take, you've sort of answered your own question. AAR in the Hawg (in DCS at least) is more of a hobby, than necessity

Funnily enough, there was a mission in campaign where I had to AAR. I ended up flying for two straight hours, babysitting a bunch of tanks and APCs to make sure they make it to their destination. This mission gave me much trouble before, I basically to have to wipe the map clear of enemy units, and then send the (slower) tanks in first, to mop up anything that spawned after I told them to move (the campaign sometimes cheats like that). It takes a whole lot of loitering for the Hog to run out of gas, but it can happen.