[REPORTED] MiG-19 radar gunsight solution incorrect

[some1]

It is not possible to hit a target using the radar sight, even a non evading one. All bullets fly behind the target.

 

I set up a mission with AI set to a constant, level, 3g turn. I followed the target with a stable tracking solution, zeroed closure rate, textbook conditions. Yet despite that all bullets miss, even at the minimal range of 300m. The bigger the distance, the bigger the error. Track attached.

 

I managed to score a hit only below minimum distance ("wychod" lamp on) and only because the target got so big, that when aiming for the cockpit I hit the engines. 

 

19.trk

[myHelljumper]

Thank you for the report, I added it to our bug tracker.

[myHelljumper]

Work is ongoing on this issue.

[Snappy]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:25 AM, myHelljumper said:

Work is ongoing on this issue.

Just tested in the latest version of open beta and the issue is still  there. Any ETA on the fix?

Kind regards,

Snappy

[Fairey Gannet]

2 hours ago, Snappy said:

Just tested in the latest version of open beta and the issue is still  there. Any ETA on the fix?

Kind regards,

Snappy

Indeed, my accuracy was so abysmal, I started to use the sight caged only. Part of misses is my fault, because I am rubbish shot, but strangely I hit more consistently just eyeballing it.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Fairey Gannet

[LowRider88]

I am experiencing the same thing too.

Is it that the sight calculation is incorrect, or is it because the 30mm rounds are too underpowered and slow?

[Snappy]

In any way it would be nice to have an update after 7 month of ongoing work.

 

[Snappy]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:25 AM, myHelljumper said:

Work is ongoing on this issue.

@myHelljumper any update on progress on this issue? Can you push it internally? It’s a critical system for the Mig-19 modules in my opinion 
Your message was more than two years ago.

thank you, kind regards.

Snappy

[some1]

Since somebody from Razbam on their Discord claims that it's been fixed for ages. No it wasn't. It's as bad in the latest DCS version as it was 3 years ago. New track attacked.

300 meters and I'm not hitting anything.

19-2.trk

Edited March 6, 2024 by some1

[finger]

Hi Some 1,

try to set wingspan to 15m for Su-27.

 

[some1]

The radar gunsight does not use wingspan setting, it's only for visual aiming without radar lock.

Edited March 6, 2024 by some1

[finger]

Radar gunsight doesnt have balistic computer,but ASP-5 N does.The firing solution performs ASP-5(range from radar+wingspan)

[some1]

That's not how any gunsight works. Wingspan is not an input to a ballistic solution. It's only for the pilot to visually estimate range to target. Which he does not do if there is a radar lock, like in this case.

[finger]

Yes,yes you are right.So,try to leave wingspan on 15 m and after lock try to change range from target(slightly)When everything is OK, the piper must correctly frame target.If not.something is vrong

[Red_Pilot]

What about radar gunsight now? Will we see the fix for radar gunsight? 

[AeriaGloria]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:57 AM, Red_Pilot said:

What about radar gunsight now? Will we see the fix for radar gunsight? 

I think part of the theory right now is that what is happening might be correctly modeled, and the result of the ASP-5N not having AOA correction. On MiG-21 you begin to see AOA vane to correct bullets and rockets. I believe the positive AOA when pulling G would weathervane the spinning bullets down. Causing what we see. So you need to aim ahead of the target depending on G load. 
 

Sight works very well for me in straight and level flight 

[some1]

That's a very far fetched theory. No pilot's manual for any gyro gunsights I have mentions such phenomenon. WWII era K-14 and EZ42, or A-4 sight in the F-86 and F-100, it's always "keep the dot on the target", never "please aim ahead because our boffins can't figure out average AoA correction".

None of them used AoA sensors either, only rate of turn. You would have think an error so large that would throw the solution completely out of whack, like it does in Razbam module even at minimum range, would at least warrant some warning to the pilot.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Sight works very well for me in straight and level flight 

You're not using the gyros in level flight, might as well cage the sight and turn off the radar.

[AeriaGloria]

Yea, I could be totally wrong. I’m sure the AOA sensors we see for MiG-21 onward and 4th gen US aircraft (idk when US first started using AOA input to gunsight) have a good use, and Soviets seemed to think they were extremely necessary for ground attack with slip correction. 
 

And of course, a gyro gunsight can easily be made to correct for average AOA. 
 

Unless we knew exactly what’s going on under the hood, I guess we can’t know. Would be interesting if so done found a really solid way to test the impact of AOA on the bullet trajectory in DCS