All the talk about multicrew... Will it be practical just with single person?

[SirBenn21]

Just wondering if it will be fun to be just by yourself, even in combat? Hope so.

[rrohde]

From the newsletter: 

 

Multi-crew. Second crew member can be another player or “Petrovich” AI (basic AI level during early access phase).

 

So that should be good for us single-player pilots. :)

[Fri13]

Rear-seat is responsible for Gun and Rocket delivery, so you get to be that with its CCIP capable gunsight. 

You can do all that as front-seat but you get fixed gunsight, and you can only use ATGM from the front seat.

Considering that you are not going to use ATGM from close ranges, you can assumingly be all the time in the front and then when you starting using ATGM by aiming with the sight the AI will at first phase at least maintain flight for you until you return to fly. 

 

So mainly you fly from rear and then sometimes as from front.  

[Lace]

I passed on the F-14 for this very reason, but somehow I feel the Hind will lend itself better to an AI pilot/CPG given that it is a less complex and less dynamic platform.  Flying as CPG I imagine it will be possible to have the pilot fly the planned route, perhaps hovering behind a treeline on request while weapon systems are prepared and then pop up for delivery, or perhaps flying as pilot I can just order the CPG 'weapons free' and allow them to allocate and engage targets as they see fit.  The fact that the Hind fulfilled plenty of other roles too mean that the CPG is less essential than the RIO in the 'cat.  They are only absolutely necessary when using ATGM AIUI.  I think the two-crew requirement for the Hind is more about redundancy/survivability than workload.

[Lurker]

22 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Rear-seat is responsible for Gun and Rocket delivery, so you get to be that with its CCIP capable gunsight. 

You can do all that as front-seat but you get fixed gunsight, and you can only use ATGM from the front seat.

Considering that you are not going to use ATGM from close ranges, you can assumingly be all the time in the front and then when you starting using ATGM by aiming with the sight the AI will at first phase at least maintain flight for you until you return to fly. 

 

So mainly you fly from rear and then sometimes as from front.  

 

I'm pretty sure that the AI will be capable of firing and guiding the ATGM missiles as well. No need to jump between seats. 

20 hours ago, Lace said:

I passed on the F-14 for this very reason...

 

Well, you probably passed on the best module in DCS. It works very well in singleplayer or in multiplayer with Jester in the backseat. Most of the issues, errors with guidance are not due to the backseat AI. 

[Lace]

14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Well, you probably passed on the best module in DCS.

 

Best is a matter of opinion and entirely subjective.  I tried the F-14 in two 'free-to-play' weekends and was completely unenamoured by it.  The Hind on the other hand was an instant day-one pre order for me. 

[Lurker]

36 minutes ago, Lace said:

 

Best is a matter of opinion and entirely subjective.  I tried the F-14 in two 'free-to-play' weekends and was completely unenamoured by it.  The Hind on the other hand was an instant day-one pre order for me. 

 

Yes you are right, "best" is very subjective, however in this case it really is a great module. It just might not be your cup of tea. Also you said "for this very reason" which would be a poor reason to pass on the F14. Since the AI is quite capable, if you know how to employ it correctly. Fully working multicrew, Jester AI, carrier capable, great flight model (which does need some tweaks) very capable in BFM as well as BVR Air to Air, as well as good to great at ground attack and bombing, swing wing design, Mach 2.0+ capable, great force feedback support, very hands on plane with no FBW support, 99% of the systems in place already in early access, etc. etc. objectively there is a lot to gush over with the F14 and the two variants of the bird. 

Well I won't derail the thread any further, but insofar as multicrew and the Hind is concerned, I don't think it will be required in the Hind the AI should be able to handle the simpler tasks rather well (we hope) but even so, I think I will probably spend more time in the Hind in multicrew than I ever did in the F14. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Lurker

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I'm pretty sure that the AI will be capable of firing and guiding the ATGM missiles as well. No need to jump between seats. 

 

Well of course AI can be firing and guiding it. But if you are going to fly alone the Mi-24 as in all seats, you want to have AI to fly helicopter when you guide the missile. As you can not do both same time. 

 

This is reason why example the SA342 has unrealistic autohover so that you can sit as a co-pilot and guide missile while looking through optics, as otherwise you crash on the ground as you can't have right hand on the joystick to guide missile and on cyclic same time. In DCS you can bind them to same joystick and fly and shoot same time, but it is just unrealistic. 

 

In Mi-24 the WSO has both hands on the controller and eye on the optics and can't fly, so either use auto hover or AI to fly around. 

When the AI WSO spots something and is ready to launch ATGM, you as pilot need to turn helicopter toward that sight position so your gunsight shows the crosshair the WSO has aimed, and then you have aligned the missiles flare to be spotted by the SACLOS system and command guidance automatically. 

 

It is like flying Mi-8MTv2 and giving the commands and angles to the door gunner with Kord. Except in that you don't have any control for the gunner that what target it should engage or it doesn't tell you if something is spotted.  

[Lace]

51 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Yes you are right, "best" is very subjective, however in this case it really is a great module. It just might not be your cup of tea. Also you said "for this very reason" which would be a poor reason to pass on the F14. Since the AI is quite capable, if you know how to employ it correctly. Fully working multicrew, Jester AI, carrier capable, great flight model (which does need some tweaks) very capable in BFM as well as BVR Air to Air, as well as good to great at ground attack and bombing, swing wing design, Mach 2.0+ capable, great force feedback support, very hands on plane with no FBW support, 99% of the systems in place already in early access, etc. etc. objectively there is a lot to gush over with the F14 and the two variants of the bird. 

Well I won't derail the thread any further, but insofar as multicrew and the Hind is concerned, I don't think it will be required in the Hind the AI should be able to handle the simpler tasks rather well (we hope) but even so, I think I will probably spend more time in the Hind in multicrew than I ever did in the F14. 

 

What can I say, Jester just bugged me. Besides, no self respecting fighter pilot needs self loading ballast nagging them from the back.  
 

Anyway, back to the Hind. 

[flo57100]

30 minutes ago, Lace said:

What can I say, Jester just bugged me. Besides, no self respecting fighter pilot needs self loading ballast nagging them from the back.  
 

Anyway, back to the Hind. 

Use the Force Luke

[malcheus]

But is it going to be fun to play human Petrovich? Or will it be a very long scenic ride, one or two ATGM launches and a very long scenic ride back?

Ofcourse there is the spotting, but you can do that from the pilot seat of your own Hind as well.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

It'll probably be like backseating for the F-14 - not for everyone, but fun for those who like it.

[Andurula]

On 4/14/2021 at 5:37 PM, Lucas_From_Hell said:

It'll probably be like backseating for the F-14 - not for everyone, but fun for those who like it.

 

 

Yes, but everyone knows that the RIO is in charge of the fight in the Tomcat.  The meatstick in front just wiggles the stick.

 

With guns and rockets (and bombs?...) available to the pilot I am sure there will be plenty for SP people to enjoy with the HIND

Edited April 20, 2021 by Andurula
got back on topic.

[Fri13]

4 minutes ago, Andurula said:

With guns and rockets (and bombs?...) available to the pilot I am sure there will be plenty for SP people to enjoy with the HIND

 

 

The AI with ATGM will be as well like a Shkval in KA-50 but with a difference that AI will automatically spot and lock on targets and engage when you are ready (or maybe even autonomously) because you just need to get their crosshair inside your gunsight pattern. So thinking KA-50 with automatic Shkval target detection and recognition is closest match.

 

Then as pilot you use rockets and fixed gun as you please.

 

Other way to put it, it is like a KA-52 but without modernized targeting systems and fixed gun.

 

Or as a Mi-8MTv8 with rockets and gunpods for pilot but instead ATGM the AI utilize 12.7 mm KORD by your command from the side.

 

So you fight with it pretty much alone as whole thing.

 

The P is far more enjoyable in SP than V would have been, as it would had left just rockets for the pilot to utilize. Where WSO would have used gun and ATGM. But if V would have been able be equipped with GUV, then it would have retained the option for pilot to use a cannon, machine guns or grenade launchers among rockets and be more like P.

 

So anyways flying as single player is not a problem nor advantage over MP as long AI spotting isn't horrible.

 

 

[Mr.Scar]

On 4/14/2021 at 9:05 PM, malcheus said:

But is it going to be fun to play human Petrovich? Or will it be a very long scenic ride, one or two ATGM launches and a very long scenic ride back?

Ofcourse there is the spotting, but you can do that from the pilot seat of your own Hind as well.

 

Short cliche answer: It depends.

 

Long answer: I fly helos for the joy of flying, not for the fun of operating complex systems. If I am not mistaken, most helos have 2 crew members at the minimum becasue well... they need to have 2 crew members due to the combat scenarios they will be in. The exception being the Ka-50.

 

Now I do not know what your experience is, so I am not trying to be a smartass here. But In order to answer your question, will it be fun to play as human Petrovich, you have to consider the following things, or at least the things I think are worth considering:

 

1. Helo flying is much different than fixed wing flying. Honestly I do not consider the comparisons of the F-14 multicrew to the Mi-24P correct. They are similar, but much different in essence. Why? Ill explain in the next points

2. F-14 RIO has to manage onboard systems + maintain SA against enemy fighters. This is because the Tomcat is an Interceptor in the first place so enemy air targets are a priority in a dogfight or BVR. Other fighters are your main concern and ususally, with a competent human rio you can prepare yourself for an engagement. 

3. The Mi-24 like other assault choppers in general operate in a utterly hostile environment, forced to be constantly low alt in a combat scenario. Manpads, guys with AK, SPAA, fighters, other helos with stingers... Being in a Mi-24 that is not designed to fire missiles safely from a distance i think both the human Petrovich and the Pilot, will have a lot to do. Honestly  i think that both of them are threat/target spotters in some way. I cant recall how many times i got killed by a manpad because i did not spot the missile launch. My SA would have been much better if i had a human co-pilot/gunner with me. How will the AI Petrovich work? Well this is something we will see eventually. 

 

As for the "very long scenic rides" well, again it all depends on the scenario. If there are any farps, is it a single player campaign, is it a multiplayer air quake environment, is it blue flag etc. all depends on the mission setup. But for the Zen aspect, the Mi-8 will probably be better.  For the "Oh my God my ass is sweating after dodging another of those stingers, thanks for letting me know Petrovich" the Mi-24P will be better.

 

Final summary?

 

Depending on the scenario and taking into account what kind of environment the mission takes place i think the Human Petrovich aswell as the pilot of the Mi-24 will have a ton of work to do and a lot to watch out for. For the end i will quote something from Chucks guide that I think applies both to the helo pilot and the gunner: 

 

"Helicopter pilots have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. You have to be one hell of a pilot to fly one of those. Or batshit insane. Or a bit of both."

 

But this is just my few cents

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[malcheus]

2 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

 

Short cliche answer: It depends.

 

Long answer: I fly helos for the joy of flying, not for the fun of operating complex systems. If I am not mistaken, most helos have 2 crew members at the minimum becasue well... they need to have 2 crew members due to the combat scenarios they will be in. The exception being the Ka-50.

 

Now I do not know what your experience is, so I am not trying to be a smartass here. But In order to answer your question, will it be fun to play as human Petrovich, you have to consider the following things, or at least the things I think are worth considering:

 

1. Helo flying is much different than fixed wing flying. Honestly I do not consider the comparisons of the F-14 multicrew to the Mi-24P correct. They are similar, but much different in essence. Why? Ill explain in the next points

2. F-14 RIO has to manage onboard systems + maintain SA against enemy fighters. This is because the Tomcat is an Interceptor in the first place so enemy air targets are a priority in a dogfight or BVR. Other fighters are your main concern and ususally, with a competent human rio you can prepare yourself for an engagement. 

3. The Mi-24 like other assault choppers in general operate in a utterly hostile environment, forced to be constantly low alt in a combat scenario. Manpads, guys with AK, SPAA, fighters, other helos with stingers... Being in a Mi-24 that is not designed to fire missiles safely from a distance i think both the human Petrovich and the Pilot, will have a lot to do. Honestly  i think that both of them are threat/target spotters in some way. I cant recall how many times i got killed by a manpad because i did not spot the missile launch. My SA would have been much better if i had a human co-pilot/gunner with me. How will the AI Petrovich work? Well this is something we will see eventually. 

 

As for the "very long scenic rides" well, again it all depends on the scenario. If there are any farps, is it a single player campaign, is it a multiplayer air quake environment, is it blue flag etc. all depends on the mission setup. But for the Zen aspect, the Mi-8 will probably be better.  For the "Oh my God my ass is sweating after dodging another of those stingers, thanks for letting me know Petrovich" the Mi-24P will be better.

 

Final summary?

 

Depending on the scenario and taking into account what kind of environment the mission takes place i think the Human Petrovich aswell as the pilot of the Mi-24 will have a ton of work to do and a lot to watch out for. For the end i will quote something from Chucks guide that I think applies both to the helo pilot and the gunner: 

 

"Helicopter pilots have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. You have to be one hell of a pilot to fly one of those. Or batshit insane. Or a bit of both."

 

But this is just my few cents

 

 

 

I understand the spotting/situational awareness part.

But I assume the weapons officer can only be played by players who own the module.

In that case, the vast majority of servers will allow them to spawn in their own chopper. 

 

So assuming we have two players, willing to play and communicate together:

What is the advantage (or added value) of them playing as a pilot and gunner in one hind, versus playing as two pilots in two hinds?

 

[Mr.Scar]

19 minutes ago, malcheus said:

 

I understand the spotting/situational awareness part.

But I assume the weapons officer can only be played by players who own the module.

In that case, the vast majority of servers will allow them to spawn in their own chopper. 

 

So assuming we have two players, willing to play and communicate together:

What is the advantage (or added value) of them playing as a pilot and gunner in one hind, versus playing as two pilots in two hinds?

 

 

Hehe, again it depends on the server type/combat environment and scenario, and if it is single/multiplayer.

 

1. 2 Hinds, with 2 pilots and 2 AI Petrovich. Definetly more firepower to strafe run and get the hell out. About spotting/launching atgms? All depends on Petrovich AI and how good it will be at early access and in the future development.

2. Human pilot + human Petrovich, less firepower but definitely more SA and visibility + someone trustworthy that you know will not get bugged because... something. 

 

Perfect scenarios, especially on cold war servers would be:

 

1. 2 Hinds, 2 Hips, and doing assault runs by the Hind, with troop deployment done by Mi-8. This is a crude description how it worked in Afghanistan. Every possible multi-crew position is manned by a human player. That will be a very powerful combo especially on Blue Flag servers where Helos are workhorses and you cant do progress without them.

 

All in all i hope that the AI will be very good in order to have fun with single player campaigns/scenarios. But for multiplayer, a human co-pilot/gunner will always be better. Because well, human?

 

So as you can see I am not able to give you a straight answer. It all depends on how good the AI Petrovich will be. Be it single player or multiplayer environment. 

 

Basically the questions you ask, are the questions I ask myself. But the things I wrote above is the way I see it will work.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, malcheus said:

 

So assuming we have two players, willing to play and communicate together:

What is the advantage (or added value) of them playing as a pilot and gunner in one hind, versus playing as two pilots in two hinds?

 

Two players in two Mi-24 becomes as good spotting things as two players in one. As you fly in formation of closely and you can share directions that you are looking for.

 

In the same helicopter the benefit is that WSO can aim the proper target for you over short discussion and you see his crosshair in you pilot gunsight, where you fly cross on cross and shoot.

 

Alone the AI needs to aim at proper target for you. So you might need to adjust AI target selection of you can't spot target yourself.

 

But overall it is better for in two separate Mi-24P because only pilot can really utilize rockets and gun. 

And having twice the firepower is great thing for one attack run.

As well capability to split and attack in turns will be more effective than attacking with one helicopter.

 

There is not really a reason to fly together as WSO can't really do anything else than ATGM launching and target designation for pilot gunsight.

 

And two helicopters is better than one.

Especially in P that is one man pilottable helicopter more than two.

 

 

 

[Mr.Scar]

32 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

Two players in two Mi-24 becomes as good spotting things as two players in one. As you fly in formation of closely and you can share directions that you are looking for.

 

In the same helicopter the benefit is that WSO can aim the proper target for you over short discussion and you see his crosshair in you pilot gunsight, where you fly cross on cross and shoot.

 

Alone the AI needs to aim at proper target for you. So you might need to adjust AI target selection of you can't spot target yourself.

 

But overall it is better for in two separate Mi-24P because only pilot can really utilize rockets and gun. 

And having twice the firepower is great thing for one attack run.

As well capability to split and attack in turns will be more effective than attacking with one helicopter.

 

There is not really a reason to fly together as WSO can't really do anything else than ATGM launching and target designation for pilot gunsight.

 

And two helicopters is better than one.

Especially in P that is one man pilottable helicopter more than two.

 

 

 

 

Yup, some valid points here.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Wychmaster]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Fri13:

Two players in two Mi-24 becomes as good spotting things as two players in one. As you fly in formation of closely and you can share directions that you are looking for.

 

Well, a human gunner has the magnifying optics and doesn't need to pay attention where the aircraft is going. So I would say two man in the same chopper have better situational awareness (at least if they fly in formation) than two single player choppers. However, I agree that two choppers are generally the better choice.

[Fri13]

7 minutes ago, Wychmaster said:

Well, a human gunner has the magnifying optics and doesn't need to pay attention where the aircraft is going. So I would say two man in the same chopper have better situational awareness (at least if they fly in formation) than two single player choppers. However, I agree that two choppers are generally the better choice.

 

Yes but both players in two helicopters has AI as WSO to scan ahead with 3/10x optics.

 

And with two you can fly and lure MANPADS, SAM or AAA to engage the flight lead while wingman observes from the distance and warns about incoming missiles or fire so targeted can release flares and maneuver properly.

 

Being in one it is more likely a missile or getting shot to side/rear without neither noticing it.

[Mr.Scar]

19 minutes ago, Wychmaster said:

Well, a human gunner has the magnifying optics and doesn't need to pay attention where the aircraft is going. So I would say two man in the same chopper have better situational awareness (at least if they fly in formation) than two single player choppers. However, I agree that two choppers are generally the better choice.

 

9 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Yes but both players in two helicopters has AI as WSO to scan ahead with 3/10x optics.

 

And with two you can fly and lure MANPADS, SAM or AAA to engage the flight lead while wingman observes from the distance and warns about incoming missiles or fire so targeted can release flares and maneuver properly.

 

Being in one it is more likely a missile or getting shot to side/rear without neither noticing it.

Well, honestly i agree with both of you, and kind of share the same thinking as I wrote the things above. However which option is better... again, it depends a lot on the scenario. 

 

Sometimes sending two helos, where one can do the job is not a good idea. But here comes the intel and mission planning part. Where are you going? What is the estimated enemy strength? Are you going against soft or hard targets? What type of weapons will be best suited for the job? Do you need only one Hind, two? or a hip with troops additionally to claim a objective? Are there fast movers/other enemy helos in the area?

 

The battlefield is a big living organism, so I would say you cant go wrong with any of those options. However what is important to have in mind, especially when flying a helo: Dont bite off more than you can chew. 

 

But coming back to the topic. 1 Hind with a pilot and human gunner, or 2 hinds with 2 pilots and Petrovich AI it all increases SA in both situations. Having extra firepower never hurts.

[malcheus]

Again, if servers implemented limited resources and consequences for crashing, I completely understand the need for a human petrovich.

 

Maybe it can also help to have the option to request a human petrovich, in which case you can takeoff and transit with the AI, and when things get interesting ask for a human in the front seat. For the humans in question it's then also more of an active role. 

[Fri13]

38 minutes ago, Mr.Scar said:

Sometimes sending two helos, where one can do the job is not a good idea. But here comes the intel and mission planning part. Where are you going? What is the estimated enemy strength? Are you going against soft or hard targets? What type of weapons will be best suited for the job? Do you need only one Hind, two? or a hip with troops additionally to claim a objective? Are there fast movers/other enemy helos in the area?

 

I believe that Mi-24's never fly in combat alone but at least in pairs, and in the cold war era there was the two sections where each had four Mi-24's.  

 

38 minutes ago, Mr.Scar said:

The battlefield is a big living organism, so I would say you cant go wrong with any of those options. However what is important to have in mind, especially when flying a helo: Dont bite off more than you can chew. 

 

It is dynamic, inside a fog of war etc. But Hind doctrine was not designed to be alone. Maybe a one Mi-8 that is escorted by 2-3 Mi-24's when picking up some troops or something from dangerous place.

 

The US has a Huey that could have been send alone to pickup a special forces team or something, to minimize the detection that way. But Soviet Union didn't really had anything as small as that if the Mi-4 doesn't count. 

 

The US defined fairly nicely the UH-1 line with the AH-1 to make a nice small tactical group, but Mi-8 + Mi-24 doesn't really make anything like that.

Maybe the KA-27 for assault operations, but I don't know. The soviet pair is more of a full force engagement than trying to sneak around.

 

The KA-50 is a nice proof of concept how easy it is to operate a combat helicopter as single pilot. The workload is really smaller than a multirole fighter pilot has, but that is more about the capability of hover and slow speed as your window of opportunity doesn't appear so quickly and you are not so high to be under threat of various targets. So you have more time to move and more time to pick your targets from your point of view. But then again in DCS at this moment it is not so often simulated as mission designers do not really have moving targets so much where a fighter gives nicer opportunity to engage them from above, where helicopter at low angle will have fewer (if at all) attack opportunities. 

 

If we would have a more realistic AI for ground units that would hide and conceal the troops in start, and then at least on moment when someone blows up, the whole combat environment would change dramatically. Less time to be high and above, but same time less changes to be at low. 

And that might be case where Mi-24 would really show its capabilities by offering "go fast, hit hard" approach where at the rear comes Mi-8's to drop troops and they get to deal the ground war then forward.  

[Mr.Scar]

19 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

I believe that Mi-24's never fly in combat alone but at least in pairs, and in the cold war era there was the two sections where each had four Mi-24's.  

 

 

It is dynamic, inside a fog of war etc. But Hind doctrine was not designed to be alone. Maybe a one Mi-8 that is escorted by 2-3 Mi-24's when picking up some troops or something from dangerous place.

 

The US has a Huey that could have been send alone to pickup a special forces team or something, to minimize the detection that way. But Soviet Union didn't really had anything as small as that if the Mi-4 doesn't count. 

 

The US defined fairly nicely the UH-1 line with the AH-1 to make a nice small tactical group, but Mi-8 + Mi-24 doesn't really make anything like that.

Maybe the KA-27 for assault operations, but I don't know. The soviet pair is more of a full force engagement than trying to sneak around.

 

The KA-50 is a nice proof of concept how easy it is to operate a combat helicopter as single pilot. The workload is really smaller than a multirole fighter pilot has, but that is more about the capability of hover and slow speed as your window of opportunity doesn't appear so quickly and you are not so high to be under threat of various targets. So you have more time to move and more time to pick your targets from your point of view. But then again in DCS at this moment it is not so often simulated as mission designers do not really have moving targets so much where a fighter gives nicer opportunity to engage them from above, where helicopter at low angle will have fewer (if at all) attack opportunities. 

 

If we would have a more realistic AI for ground units that would hide and conceal the troops in start, and then at least on moment when someone blows up, the whole combat environment would change dramatically. Less time to be high and above, but same time less changes to be at low. 

And that might be case where Mi-24 would really show its capabilities by offering "go fast, hit hard" approach where at the rear comes Mi-8's to drop troops and they get to deal the ground war then forward.  

 

Totally agree and this is how things should work and what should be taken into account when flying a specific platform. What I wanted to stress with flying the Hind solo is that we need to take into account how the current state of DCS looks like. We do not have a official dynamic campaign (which is a wet dream for me that i hope comes true) and by the book executed combat scenarios can be hard to come by, especially for pilots who prefer to fly solo. A viable option is a well tailored single player campaign, that will not overwhelm the pilot with air quake. Multiplayer... cliche: It depends.

 

Thus the consideration how viable the Mi-24P is, when used by a single pilot without a human gunner. I think it will be very fun to fly solo. Both in single and multiplayer, but the true potential will be unleashed when flying according to the purpose that it was designed for. And like mentioned before, a extra buddy in a second Hind never hurts. It makes things even more interesting.