tanks shooting down helos

[Skarp]

just saw a helo get shot down by a t80 with it's main gun. the helo dodged all these missiles and then gets cheated by a little tank it was ment to destroy :D. never noticed the tanks actually did that till now.

[Kovy]

Like in real life :wink:

may be the lomac tank drivers are a bit more lucky though :D

[D-Scythe]

Well, tanks may be able to do this, but the way they are going about it in Lock On is completely unrealistic. Typically, a tank can take down a relatively fast moving helo from 2km out with pinpoint accuracy, and then there would be another tank sitting stationary a kilometre away and the two would take twenty rounds to destroy each other.

[Dusty Rhodes]

Um, where in the world do you get that it is real world that a tank uses it's main gun to shoot down a Helo? Care to cite any examples? They said we could do it with TOW missiles from Improved Tow Vehicles, but it was pure theory. I could see a lucky shot or two, sure, but for it to happen on a regular basis? I think not. Not like LOMAC has it modelled.

 

This conversation is also going on at the UBI LOMAC boards http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=38610606&m=2071080262&r=4981001262#4981001262

[GGTharos]

I think he's describing LOMAC's problems so you're agreeing with him without knowing it ;)

 

WHile tanks WILL shoot at helos with their main guns they'll usually use a STAFF round or MPAT< I forget which, which has a reasonable Pk against a Helo. So said a tanker I know - he said they were on the practice range and they 'took out' a bunch of apache's trying to be sneaky behind some treelines...all happened at a good distance, too, over 1km.

[Skarp]

sorry I was not specific enough on my first post. I was refering to lomac no RL :P

[Dusty Rhodes]

I killed many a HIND D mock up at Fort Irwin, National Training Center with the TOW missile using the MILES system. But that doesn't mean it is doctrine or even smart to do. Show me where this has been done in real life, on a regular basis. This falls under the........yes it is possible but it doesn't happen in RL..........category. Have them fire a real Main gun round at a chopper and see if it really happens. I am sure they were using the MILES system also.

[GGTharos]

I hear they're just using their top-attack time-fuzed munition.

[SwingKid]

About a year ago there was a popular movement in one of the Russian forums (sukhoi.ru?) suggesting that the Lock On environment would be more "immersive" and "dynamic" (and "like Falcon 4") if the ground vehicles played a bigger role. For example, there were BTR vehicles with anti-personnel machine guns that at the time, didn't shoot at all in the game (since there were no personnel), and people were insisting (if you remember what some posters were insisting about T-80 crews wanting to keep fighting after being hit by GAU-8) that these things should be firing every available clip, round, pebble or laser pointer at any passing aircraft, without regard for combat effectiveness or their own survival, because that's what "real" soldiers "do" in war. Well, ED tried it - for a while, every gun in the game was shooting at everything and you didn't need Shilkas in the mission because the BTRs were shooting down A-10s with machine guns. It was pretty ridiculous and eventually got toned down a little but we still have the tanks shooting at helicopters as a leftover from those days. :roll:

 

I sometimes wonder if the Russian community might have more people looking at warfare from a "ground forces perspective" than we do... There are some good Russian-language books about tanks, SAMs and artillery, but most modern English-language military writing seems to be all about airplanes.

 

-SK

[Dusty Rhodes]

"...people were insisting (if you remember what some posters were insisting about T-80 crews wanting to keep fighting after being hit by GAU- that these things should be firing every available clip, round, pebble or laser pointer at any passing aircraft, without regard for combat effectiveness or their own survival, because that's what "real" soldiers "do" in war."

 

You could only hope your enemy would act like this. They would not be your enemy for long as they would be dead. :? I hope ED can address this, if they chose to. Again, this wouldn't be a priority this late in the game, but it is a known thing, and i hope it is addressed in later products.

[SUBS17]

Its more likely that if a tank crew sees an A-10, they're going to bail out. If they're in a situation where they're clustered in an area they might provide covering fire for each other. I'd call for airsupport and then leave the tank if I saw one lining up for a rocket pass. If hes using a Maverick, forget it.

 

As for tanks shooting down Helos in real life. Shouldn't happen! The Helo AI is very poor in Lockon. The reality is that tank crews never see what hit them as far as Apaches are concerned. The engagement range is about 7km away and the Choppers don't even pop up to fire the missile. An Apache can carry 16 Hellfires, they fly in flights of 4. Thats 64 Missiles that will not miss, and are launched at 7.5km away!

[GGTharos]

THey don't luanhc from that far. TYpical engagement is much closer to 4 or less, 1km or so at night or in congested spaces.

[D-Scythe]

Actually, it shouldn't even matter for the AH-64D Longbow. Their AGM-114s are fire-and-forget, like the AMRAAM, only for tanks. In all honesty, if Lock On was to model helos correctly, a flight of four AH-64Ds should take out 32 T-80s caught in the open all in one or two passes - a minute or two - assuming that it takes two Hellfires to destroy a tank as it currently is in Lock On.

[SUBS17]

THey don't luanhc from that far. TYpical engagement is much closer to 4 or less, 1km or so at night or in congested spaces.

 

Yes they do :D And at night also.

[SUBS17]

Actually, it shouldn't even matter for the AH-64D Longbow. Their AGM-114s are fire-and-forget, like the AMRAAM, only for tanks. In all honesty, if Lock On was to model helos correctly, a flight of four AH-64Ds should take out 32 T-80s caught in the open all in one or two passes - a minute or two - assuming that it takes two Hellfires to destroy a tank as it currently is in Lock On.

 

They don't do passes, they remain in dead ground. Thats 64 kills

[GGTharos]

No. And that's from real ops.

[Dmut]

About shooting from main gun - Russian tanks shoot their guided ballistics from main barrel, not from TOW-like tube above the turret. And they supposed to take a shot on hely, they trained to do this.

As for accuracy of shooting helys in LO - yes, I agree, it's a little bit "overmodelled".

[Dusty Rhodes]

I don't mean for this to sound rude, but I know this is going to and it is not meant to be rude...........here goes :) ...............do any of you who claim that this is what happens in real life, have any evidence that this happens. I am not saying it can't happen, I am saying it doesn't happen. There might be instances of this happening in the past, but certainly not normal in the least bit and certainly quite isolated instances. Yes there are rounds that can take out Helo's but is it doctrine? Are they actually in service, part of the combat load of a tank, and trained with? Please provide some proof other then I read somewhere, or a friend told me.

 

Just on the pure tactical level, you would be an absolute fool to fire your main gun at a helo and give your position away to his wingmen. Fire the gun like that and you better be butt cheeks and elbows running away from your tank because you are going to get a Hellfire or Swatter (which ever side you are on) in your lap. The report from your main gun WILL NOT be missed by the other side. Not to mention if you miss, where did that round land, and who did it kill. Tanks are not AAA and don't run around with these "helo killing rounds" in their tubes. They are out there to kill enemy ground forces. The time to unload that HE or Sabot round, load a "Helo killing round", and then load back to that HE or Sabot round and find an enemy ground unit to kill...............you are already dead, because that helo you took a pot shot at is going to kill you, or if you got lucky, his wingman WILL kill you, or enemy ground units will have seen that nice smoke puff (report) from your main gun.

 

Sorry folks, this is not realistic. Of course there is no such thing as total realism in a sim, but this one is an obvious one. Please don't take this as a slam on ED, it is far from it. My argument is with those of you who think this really happens in RL. It doesn't and I hope ED gets some time to address it in the future, as I know it isn't a priority now.

[SwingKid]

I believe Dmut is referring to the T-80's ATGM armament, not a normal tank round.

 

I also have doubts about tactical feasibility, but to be fair, the specific reasons you have cited are not convincing either. The report from a tube-launched ATGM is likely to be quieter than a main round, a guided weapon stands a good chance of hitting a helo, and because of its longer reach, the ATGM round stands a good chance of being the first weapon loaded in the tube when you first encounter the enemy.

 

Not saying that it would be effective in an offensive, this-is-my-army's-new-anti-helicopter-doctrine sort of way (how do you detect the helo?), but if I'm sitting in a warmed-up tank ready to fire and the helo is equipped with IR sensors and about to lock me up and my choices are (a) take the shot, or (b) bail out and get wasted by 30 mm like those guys in the Iraq video... I'll take the shot. There is at least some evidence of Russian ATGMs being used against aircraft successfully - a test shot of the Vikhr against a drone, and that old legend nobody believes anymore about an Mi-35 taking down an Iranian F-4 with a "lucky shturm"...

 

That all said, I think we'd all rather be in the helo. :wink:

 

-SK

[Dusty Rhodes]

Having been a part of an armored task force of M1 tanks and Bradley's and other armored vehicles, I can positively say, you are a dead man if you fire that main gun at a helo. Tactically, you are an idiot to do it. Having experienced the National Training Center in Fort Irwin, 3 times, in offensive and defensive, as well as movement to contact, passage of lines, the works, you do not shoot your main gun at a helo! I am not sure what about the reasons I have cited are not convincing. I am not talking out of, I heard, or I read somewhere, I am talking about having been in that situation in the most real training you can get, without actually taking part in an armored assault across the desert in real life, facing attack helo's. And as far as I know, US armored forces have never faced Hinds or other attack helo's in combat. So that training at the NTC in Fort Irwin is about as close as any one has been (to my knowledge).

 

Now in the case of "this is all I got", I agree, let her rip. But expect the wingie of that helo, or the enemy ground forces in front of you to paint a big bullseye on you. I am strictly talking, does this happen normally and regularily? No, it doesn't. I am sure there are isolated instances when this has happened, but it is NOT part of every day combat and should be taken out of LOMAC, when time permits.

[Dmut]

Thanks Andrew, yes, I meant ATGM rounds.

 

Dusty Rhodes, and again I am talking that in russian tanks main gun works as TOW tube for specific guided rounds, it's not like Abrams will shot hely with APDS round.

And yes, it's quite unrealistic to take down strafing on full speed AH. But what is so difficult in hitting a slowly hovering hely with laser-guided round?

 

btw, in "FM 17-15 Tank Platoon", April 1996. page 195 - they discussing Platoon air defence fires, including main gun fire. However, they didn't say how effective it is.

[SwingKid]

Having been a part of an armored task force of M1 tanks and Bradley's and other armored vehicles, I can positively say, you are a dead man if you fire that main gun at a helo. Tactically, you are an idiot to do it... Now in the case of "this is all I got", I agree, let her rip. But expect the wingie of that helo, or the enemy ground forces in front of you to paint a big bullseye on you.

 

This is not my area of expertise but it sounds interesting - what would distinguish firing a guided missile at a helo through a tank gun from, say, firing a guided missile at a helo through an SA-13 launch tube, to make it that much worse of an idea? Can't the helo wingie attack either one? Wouldn't there be a big flaming smoke trail behind the missile pointing directly at the launcher in either case, that would make worrying about the noise a moot point? Is a T-80 simply more valuable than the helo and the SA-13, and not worth the trade?

 

Not qualified to disagree here, just trying to "get it".. Cheers

 

-SK

[SUBS17]

Thinking along the lines of a T80 vs Nato heli type of engagement, the Nato chopper is obviously going to be 1 of a very large group. So its highly likely that the loss of that aircraft in that area would result in a couple of apaches and a kiowa to sort the problem. I think future tank designs would likely incorporate SAMs as part of their design eg Stinger etc. The main gun could lock onto a helicopter if it has a laser designator and fire control computer. But the chances of a hit are still not very good. if some is to shoot its likely to be with the machine gun mounted on the top. However if the helicopter is landing or flying slowly/hovering then I'd say they are likely to use the gun.

[Orao]

Thinking along the lines of a T80 vs Nato heli type of engagement, the Nato chopper is obviously going to be 1 of a very large group. So its highly likely that the loss of that aircraft in that area would result in a couple of apaches and a kiowa to sort the problem. I think future tank designs would likely incorporate SAMs as part of their design eg Stinger etc. The main gun could lock onto a helicopter if it has a laser designator and fire control computer. But the chances of a hit are still not very good. if some is to shoot its likely to be with the machine gun mounted on the top. However if the helicopter is landing or flying slowly/hovering then I'd say they are likely to use the gun.

 

By the time you got firing solution the helo will change the position and you will have to recalculate all over again if you are not dead off course.

There is no secret. If you want to get rid of helos and planes use vehicules dedicated to the air defence

[SUBS17]

Like I said, if its flying slow or landing they are more likely to use the gun.