RvE Lockon Realism Mod Release Candidate 4 (Public Beta)

[fulcrum251]

Hi,all.

The MOD is so great.

but could we add the cannon funnel mode for F-15?Why ED designed the funnel mode in A-10,but none in F-15?

[vanir]

Sorry for the delay in finding this. Life's been, well, life. This was the book I had in mind:

 

Lake, Jon: Jane's How to Fly and Fight in the MiG-29 Fulcrum, Harper Collins, 1997, page 57.

 

The particular section I was remembering concerns a section quoting an unnamed USAFE F-16C squadron commander whose unit was one of those who fought mock battles with the (former East) German MiG-29s. Pages 55-57 deal with issues of switchology and poor user friendliness of the avionics.

 

But page 57 reads in part:

 

"He'll have lost lock on me as I pass, and if he breaks lock, his radar display and scan automatically jump back out to the 70 nm range settings. He can't change that... I talked to the western-trained MiG-29 pilots, who admitted that, 'yeah, our chances of locking you up as you flew past us in the merge were slim-to-none because of the way the system is set up'.

 

For what it's worth.

 

Rich

 

Are these the same mock combats upon which Johann Koeck (cdr 1./JG73) commented (paraphrasing for space),

 

"Our navigation system (on the MiG-29) I'd prefer to call an estimation system. For communications we have only one VHF/UHF radio. The radar is at least a generation behind the AN/APG65, with poor situational awareness. It has reliability problems, lookdown/shootdown problems, poor discrimination between targets flying in formation and we can't lock onto the target in trail, only into lead.

But inside ten nautical miles with Archers I can't be beat, period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable close in. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills but only after taking 18 Archers.

We didn't operate "kill removal" since there'd be no training value, we killed them too quickly. They couldn't believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room."

 

lol, I love that.

[vanir]

Forgive my newb question, but I noted a civilian technician accidentally started tracking F-117s when they were used in the Gulf, using mundane troubleshooting software on the mobile coverage telecommunications network (thank God the Iraqi air defence network didn't think of it).

So with regards to RCS profiles, aren't these sort of muted IRL using datalink/AWACS/GCI facilities? And the high survivability technology of lowered RCS acts more as a physical enhancement to ECM for evading effective locks by missile seeker heads only?

 

Meaning including RCS profiles to a server mod (ie. affecting player experience at all) would be similarly muted. But it may affect missile accuracy alone (not aircraft detection capabilities where some datalink functions occur "off stage" in commercial sims)?

 

I'm not that educated on it all, just some enthusiast impressions/wondering.

[borchi_2b]

hi yoda.

i read through the first page of this threat and also the pdf files what you guys change and why etc etc.

i see your changes as an attempt to get more realism into this sim right?

 

if so, please, the first thing you guys have to do is research alot more then you guys did so far. this is obvious when you read through the changes.

 

just a little example where you are way off.

ecm blinking is a real factor. f15e, f16c, f18 and many more do that, as far the automated electronic warfare cpu is active and programmed.

 

to the missles.

maddging is one of the most real things in real bvr combat that exists.

the new missiles have greater range then for example the f16 can effectivly lock targets, but one thing that you guys should have changed is the flightrange of the r27et.

it has the same motor, same body like the r27er, but only makes unguided the half way over ground.

this is pathetic in my opinion, an ask the russian guys on exebitions like fairford , the ILA in berlin germany or in paris.

both missiles have about the same range, no matter if the ir head can track or not.

 

so sorry, but in my opinion becomes lock on more unrealitic with that mod then it has ever been before.

 

cheers.

 

keep up that work but remember, this way, it becomes more and more an arcade game.

damn i am looking forward for the new modules of DCS

 

edit:

to the evasive manuevers and the magic barrel rol in a range of 10nm.

sorry for my hard words.

i know enough about phisics to tell you, that the flightpass of a fast moving, high energy missile will never be able to catch up with the flightpath of a high performance fighter like the mig, the su27 or the f15.

the planes travel maybe 25% of the speed of the missile. it has greater wings and can make smaller turns, in comparison to speed, radious of the turn and the most important fact is the g load.

sorry but also in real life you will be able to ditch a missle, do to the fact that most of the missiles have a certain g limit before they satrt to break apart and no on board comp of any missile will exceed these limits just to make a chase for a target.

 

lol

in some way i have to laugh about this mod. sorry, but it makes my day :-)

Edited March 9, 2009 by borchi_2b

[GGTharos]

hi yoda.

i read through the first page of this threat and also the pdf files what you guys change and why etc etc.

i see your changes as an attempt to get more realism into this sim right?

 

 

if so, please, the first thing you guys have to do is research alot more then you guys did so far. this is obvious when you read through the changes

 

Talk about not knowing what you're talking about ...

 

 

just a little example where you are way off.

ecm blinking is a real factor. f15e, f16c, f18 and many more do that, as far the automated electronic warfare cpu is active and programmed.

 

The automated on/off jammer cycle, as well as the ECCM designed to counter the various jamming methods are not and cannot be simulated in LOMAC due to engine limitations. Blinking your jammer on and off is nothing short of a nuissance.

 

to the missles.

maddging is one of the most real things in real bvr combat that exists.

the new missiles have greater range then for example the f16 can effectivly lock targets, but one thing that you guys should have changed is the flightrange of the r27et.

 

Maybe you should ask someone who's used missiles in something resembling 'maddoging'. Like the British. They found out that any 'BVR' with anything that resembles a maddogged missile has incredibly low Pk, and they immidiately went off to purchase datalink systems for their radars to link to the 120's they bought. Or was it their skyfashes - I forget. Maddoging is A WVR affair, not BVR.

 

Furthermore, the flight range of the R-27ET CANNOT be changed by modders.

 

it has the same motor, same body like the r27er, but only makes unguided the half way over ground.

this is pathetic in my opinion, an ask the russian guys on exebitions like fairford , the ILA in berlin germany or in paris.

both missiles have about the same range, no matter if the ir head can track or not.

 

yes, they have similar (but not same) kinematic range. So what? Who cares. It's enough of a menace already in the game.

 

so sorry, but in my opinion becomes lock on more unrealitic with that mod then it has ever been before.

 

cheers.

 

keep up that work but remember, this way, it becomes more and more an arcade game.

damn i am looking forward for the new modules of DCS

 

Actually, it became a little more realistic in that you now have to pay attention to what you're doing. Please don't offer opinion which isn't backed up by a shrred of reality here ;)

[borchi_2b]

to the missle question:

well i have a person my close friendship who saw the aim120b and aim120c performe in real life.

yes they use the datalink as a certain support but maddoging is still a used taktik of the nato pilots.

it has allways to do with the need of the certain actions that have to be done.

i myself do not like to fact of maddoging but to punish people for it, just because some people cannot handle it, is in my opinion not the way to go.

 

you have to pay more attention. that is nonsence.

the only thing this does is, that you do not have to pay more attention to the fight, cause this stupied mod supports more then ever the tactic most ARH pilots use.

shoot, then turn and burn, cause my missile will do the job for me.

this is hilarious, but funny.

i hope that there will be no freak who messes up the future modules.

where is the skill, when poeple improve things in a lua that are nonsence?

then i can also buy myself a xbox360 and play acecombat 6.

in the end we will end up by firing 8 ARH missiles and each tracks an own target automaticly.

 

not all that the community comes up with is the best way to go, and only because i state my opinion and do not get along with that mod, does not mean to become unfriendly with the first sentence of a reply

 

i strongly recommend to think about lockon and the facts why things are done and scripted in a certain way from the development team, before changing things and punishing people on servers just because they use real things as far they are possible in a non 100% real sim.

 

if you guys want it more realistic, then you have to get the code and start from scratch.

this mod is no solution, sorry, but this is my opinion and i hope that LOCERF will not use it.

 

if you want to improve things then start to improve the radar for the su27 and the mig29.

go firther and make it possible to get the TWS working for these birds.

and now please GG tharos do not tell me that this is nnot realistic, cause it is and proven.

a bullseye function would be handy too.

the only thing that sounds good so far is the fact of the groundclutter and low level planes, that thier performance is reduced a bit.

 

cheers

 

no more comments on that topic, i am done with such mods that are nonsence too me.

by the way, maybe you guys want to talk to a real pilot then i could ask somebody of our squad if he has time and is willingly to help you guys a bit with some stuff like missile performance

[GGTharos]

to the missle question:

well i have a person my close friendship who saw the aim120b and aim120c performe in real life.

yes they use the datalink as a certain support but maddoging is still a used taktik of the nato pilots.

it has allways to do with the need of the certain actions that have to be done.

i myself do not like to fact of maddoging but to punish people for it, just because some people cannot handle it, is in my opinion not the way to go.

 

Okay, I have a close friend too: Reality. Not a SINGLE 120 shot that I know of has been maddogged in real combat. Maddog is a mode offered for VISUAL engagements in case you're having radar/whatever issues. Or in the latest version, if the JHMCS fails. ;)

 

you have to pay more attention. that is nonsence.

the only thing this does is, that you do not have to pay more attention to the fight, cause this stupied mod supports more then ever the tactic most ARH pilots use.

shoot, then turn and burn, cause my missile will do the job for me.

this is hilarious, but funny.

i hope that there will be no freak who messes up the future modules.

where is the skill, when poeple improve things in a lua that are nonsence?

then i can also buy myself a xbox360 and play acecombat 6.

in the end we will end up by firing 8 ARH missiles and each tracks an own target automaticly.

Okay, I'm going to ignore this nonsense and pretend you didn't write it. What? O.o.

You can shoot the missile and turn around and run in RL, but there's just better tactics to use in many cases. And in some, it WILL be the best tactic. Circumstances conspire to make it reasonable in LO.

 

And yeah, you do have to pay more attention. Pay attention!

 

not all that the community comes up with is the best way to go, and only because i state my opinion and do not get along with that mod, does not mean to become unfriendly with the first sentence of a reply

 

i strongly recommend to think about lockon and the facts why things are done and scripted in a certain way from the development team, before changing things and punishing people on servers just because they use real things as far they are possible in a non 100% real sim.

I strongly think, if you wanted a friendlier response, that you should not have claimed to be an expert in reality which you aren't. You tried to trash the mod without so much as attempting to understand the spirit it is done in. And that would have been okay too, except you then went ahead to declare yourself an expert.

 

if you guys want it more realistic, then you have to get the code and start from scratch.

this mod is no solution, sorry, but this is my opinion and i hope that LOCERF will not use it.

LOCERF already uses it; and it is the only solution available.

 

if you want to improve things then start to improve the radar for the su27 and the mig29.

go firther and make it possible to get the TWS working for these birds.

and now please GG tharos do not tell me that this is nnot realistic, cause it is and proven.

Proven by what? The Su-27S/P/SK do NOT have any sort of TWS mode that allows the launching of multiple weapons simultaneously. Their operator's manuals prove that ;)

 

AFAIK, there's even doubt that the 9.13C can do it, even though it can carry the 77.

 

Where's your proof? Those radars should be DEGRADED, not enhanced.

 

a bullseye function would be handy too.

the only thing that sounds good so far is the fact of the groundclutter and low level planes, that thier performance is reduced a bit.

Since nothing can be displayed by the mod, a bullseye is not feasible.

 

 

cheers

 

no more comments on that topic, i am done with such mods that are nonsence too me.

by the way, maybe you guys want to talk to a real pilot then i could ask somebody of our squad if he has time and is willingly to help you guys a bit with some stuff like missile performance

 

I have several real life COMBAT pilots that I can and do talk to. Don't need whoever you're talking to since they're quite obviously supplying you with either a very high level of 'fo' view.

[X-man]

Just to make things clear here, LOCERF has used PARTS of this mod in the latest events. Many of the things are not implemented.

[Bearitall]

This is a legitime point of view and statement. Overall spoken and worth to be considered.

But lil bit too overall missing the details what is changed and why.

Development lives from attempts to improve things and noone can deny the lacks we have.

 

Besides: We dont change the Sim. We just provide THIS environment on our server...... everyone is free to "taste" it or not and give their impressions and suggestions.

 

A Sim will stay a strong sim over years ONLY if devs and simmers are interested in to improve it over time !!

 

Peace.

 

I agree with A.S on this .... Community Members are now the only ones making any sort of improvements to Lock On..since the original Developers have now shelved it for Black Shark..enough said and let's encourage Community Members to keep it up

 

Nice Work Guys..:D

[maiochine]

Hello guys ! i hope im not going out of topic but i need help doing a mod.

 

Im building an F-15E for Lock On and would like to know how can i change the thrust power of the aircraft like the F-15C in lock on has a 2x PW F100-220 with 25,000 lbf each on AFB instead the F-15E has 29,000 lbf.

 

So what file should i modify to modify the empty weight of the aricrat and the power of the engines ?

 

Appreciate any help you can provide.

 

many thanks

[GGTharos]

You can't.

[maiochine]

You can't.

 

Oh no ! :(

 

too bad ... but in DCS will it be possible ?

 

Thanks

[GGTharos]

There is an intent to release 3rd party modding tools for DCS at some point.

 

I don't know how much you'll be able to do with them - but I doubt you'll get the information to create a realistic F-15E anyway ... not that you shouldn't try.

[A.S]

Related maddoging...

 

1st:

there is no point at all to maddog any used missile at bvr range where i could give it even more guidance by assisting with lock. so why in the hell i should maddog? maybe cuz i dont know anything else?

 

2nd:

maybe and only if i can estimate bandtis position far out in space and time i "could" maddog a "suprise warning" for tactical purpose with less hope of a hit most probably a 250.000$ balistic rocket.

 

3rd:

forget comparsions of reallife maddogs and lockon maddogs. reason why is the search cone and algorythm what allows to use missiles in lockon beyond the capabilites and how they are supposed to be used, meaning screwing up the "challenge aspect" and just exploid-using them.

they lack totally in performace and are fully exaggerative in "search n pick" abilities.

In some cases they go terminal stage condition straight from the rails - even beyond WVR -and this is far beyond any realism.

 

4th: maddogs at close range might makes sense in some cases, but really rare.

 

last but not least:

 

whereas standart variables of BVR fights are (compared to alternative sims for example):

 

* denying lock

* exploiding the gates

* closure

* DLZ

* pitbull

* Poles

* and other variables

 

in lockon they are:

 

de-graded "art of fight" (comparsion to book) what is supported by "maddoging", 120s "better" scaning then your own radar and chaffs developed in area51.

 

********

 

The most important edge is that rather then exploiding your opponent you can exploid the game <<< this factor is MAIN issue, may it be willing or unintentionally.

 

THIS is why Yoda at least tried to improve things with alot background AND "my friend saw a 120 lauched in real" is something what exploids me right now :megalol:

[rattler]

Maybe they use mad dogging to get the attention of the aircraft and maybe force him to do something that you want him to do to improve your PK. Just a thought.

[GGTharos]

No, they don't. Not in RL anyway - since Maddogging - LOWERING the Pk of your shot. Why would you want to lower the Pk of your first shot?

 

(Answer: You wouldn't)

[hitman]

He who fights and runs away gets to live another day.

[hitman]

What are you implying? If you are implying that I spam online, then apparently you dont know who I am. Thats typical of people such as yourself.

Edited March 19, 2009 by hitman

[GGTharos]

Take it to PM gents.

[monotwix]

We have to remember that this is a game and people are gonna use things that wouldn't work in rl anyway. GG is right "why would you do that

 

Typical of you hitman, I guess spamming is great too.

 

Implication of combat history is not a spam bro.

[Kuky]

History showed that breaking out of combat while you still have a chance saves your life and the aircraft... this has nothing to do with spamming or maddoging... you simply avoid to get into bad position from which you might not get out alive.

 

If there's anything needed to fix in LockOn its to deny the ability for people to fire missiles without lock... People simply don't have the dignity and honesty to play the game in realistic manner and love to exploit... this is a fact and people will do it if they know how and if it can be done.

 

I can see showing video's to everyone how explaiting of the game was wrong as it did nothing else but ruin the game because if no one knew how to do these things they wouldn't have done it... and this would not leave the MP gameplay at this state.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Kuky

[wed]

I respect the philosophy of this mod! It is realized as best as possible for lock on. But one thing is really buggy. It is realization of tws auto track feature. Possible it works good if antena elevation function bind on keys But if its bind on rotary (for me example) it works suxx cause game used data from rotary and from script at the same time.

[GGTharos]

That can't be fixed.

[Case]

If there's anything needed to fix in LockOn its to deny the ability for people to fire missiles without lock...

No, what needs to be fixed are the unrealistic seekers of some of the missiles. If the AIM-120, R-77 and R-27ET wouldn't pick up targets as they do now, firing missiles without a lock would just be wasting them.

[Kuky]

If you're not able to fire a missile without a lock then you shouldn't be able to, simple as that. And yes, I agree.. missile seakers need serious fixing also... these are the bigest drawbacks of the game I think.