F-14E Super Tomcat and other What-if Planes

[Tank50us]

A while back, I posted a thread about the ST21 project, and after what I saw of the Super Hornet mod, I decided that I was going to do this, and make the ST21 a reality. But, being the capitalist that I am, I have some rather ambitious goals, I do not intend to make this a free mod, but a full fidelity module that will hopefully become part of DCS.

 

The aim is to bring this aircraft to life, and make it competitive with the JF17, J11, and upcoming EF2000 (since in the aircraft history I'm writing up, it entered service in 2006). Note I say 'competitive', and not ROFLStomp them, it is still an F-14 at the end of the day, and she's not known for being small. I won't share too many details here, but I will say that the ST21 is not the only project I aim to do.

 

What I'm hoping is to form a team, one that has a passion for aircraft and helicopters that were just never given a fair shake in the real world, as well as aircraft that have limited information on them, so some level of deductive reasoning will be a requirement to be a part. Yes, this means that we'll have to work with assumptions alot, but given that access to some of these aircraft can be best described as 'target practice if you lack the clearance', this is what we'll have to do.

 

So what will be on the roadmap? Quite a bit actually, right now the ideas tossed around, in no particular order are:

• TSR-2
• Avro Arrow
• F-20 Tigershark
• RAH-66 Comanche
• F117 Nighthawk
• F-14E Super Tomcat

In addition, the team will also attempt to make new AI units that follow the same vein as the flyable units, as well as some that just haven't made it into DCS just yet, but certainly deserve to exist.

 

Keep in mind, the above list is not all inclusive, and the goal once work starts is to work on one craft at a time, two at the most, and then as they're released, new aircraft will commence work. Well, that's the goal anyway, but since no plan survives first contact, we'll see how things play out.

 

Anyway, if you're interested, the roles we have to fill are as follows:

 

3D Artists

Animators

Lua Coders

Test Pilots

Texture Artists

And a researcher or two might not hurt either.

 

Hopefully, this all works out, and these can become real modules. I think we can all agree that it would be nice to answer that age old question when it comes to aircraft development: "What If?"

[notproplayer3]

I absolutely support your project but don't you think there's a big difference with aircraft that had pretty normal deployment in combat operations such as the f117 and aircraft that never existed outside the few sketches that were made of them such as the super tomcat ?

But hey, if you manage to find most of the relevant the information you need for full fidelity on any "obscure" military aircraft, I'm all for it and I wish you good luck 

 

[Tank50us]

1 minute ago, notproplayer3 said:

I absolutely support your project but don't you think there's a big difference with aircraft that had pretty normal deployment in combat operations such as the f117 and aircraft that never existed outside the few sketches that were made of them such as the super tomcat ?

But hey, if you manage to find most of the relevant the information you need for full fidelity on any "obscure" military aircraft, I'm all for it and I wish you good luck 

 

 

There's quite a bit of information on what those aircraft could have been actually. You have to remember, I'm not talking about designs that were drawn by some drunk aeronautical engineer on a napkin somewhere. We're talking about aircraft that at the very least had a model or mock-up built to try and convince the walking talking piggy banks why they should fund this project further. In other words, while some of these aircraft were never built and flown, they still had real design work done to them. It's just that the funds dried up before they could go further.

 

And in the case of the Tomcat, we at least know what it would've had in terms of weapons, systems, and engines. So all that's required to design and build an accurate flight model is lots and lots of reading, and a bit of trial and intestine pulverizing error.

[notproplayer3]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29653/this-is-what-grummans-proposed-f-14-super-tomcat-21-would-have-actually-looked-like

Yes, of course, bad phrasing from my part. Though my point remains, I'm sure it is immensely different than trying to find information and build a full fidelity module of an already existing plane. The fact is that all these upgrades to the f14e tomcat were proposed though never tested nor documented. Things like airframe modifications, control surfaces modifications and the new fcs system will need you to conduct some aerodynamic research yourselves if you wish to make something remotely realistic in it's handling.

The new systems and how they interact with each other and how they are integrated in the cockpit would also be guess work (mfd pages and such...).

At the end of the day you're pretty much designing the whole aircraft yourselves (by trying to integrate all of the proposed individual components into you design) which is a whole lot different than piecing and guessing information on an already flying obscure aircraft.

 

I get that the f14e you wish to make is a "what if ?" plane, though the fact that you'd like to make it full fidelity is making me believe that you'd actually need to make it so the module you develop transcends the realm of "what if ?" and actually is something that could be reverse engineered by real military plane makers and be made in real life for real life wars, so the thing I see here is that you need to be an aeronautical engineer if you are willing to make it as real as possible. 

 

PS: I may have seen your project in a too ambitious way in that last paragraph. I just think that you'd just have to imagine how the aircraft would operate yourselves meaning it'll pretty much be fantasy. I don't know how I feel about that. As a mod I have no problem but as a paid module, I doubt ED would want to take part in this adventure.

I'd much rather have a real, obscure aircraft have it's capabilities educatedly guessed than systems pieced together by imagination.

Don't let my words discourage you, do what you prefer at the end of the day. I don't know much of anything about this particular subject anyway.

Edited May 8, 2021 by notproplayer3

[Tank50us]

1 hour ago, notproplayer3 said:

PS: I may have seen your project in a too ambitious way in that last paragraph. I just think that you'd just have to imagine how the aircraft would operate yourselves meaning it'll pretty much be fantasy. I don't know how I feel about that. As a mod I have no problem but as a paid module, I doubt ED would want to take part in this adventure.

I'd much rather have a real, obscure aircraft have it's capabilities educatedly guessed than systems pieced together by imagination.

Don't let my words discourage you, do what you prefer at the end of the day. I don't know much of anything about this particular subject anyway.

 

Oh it is ambitious. Fortunately, I do know a few people with engineering degrees who are in a position to assist, or at least advise. As for figuring things out, admittedly a lot of things will be trial and error, but some things are knowns (like the engines and MFDs), so that will certainly help. Like you said, the challenge will ultimately be merging all of these systems into a single plane, which is a challenge the real world designers would've faced anyway.

 

As for ED, I have reached out to find out the requirements, and most of them are doable from the get-go. The challenge is going to be documentation (IE, manuals and such) on any of these aircraft, since any that existed would likely have been destroyed when their projects were canned, so, we'd have to create them from scratch. On top of that, many of the birds we plan to emulate may not be what's sitting in museums right now, but late-service versions with bits added assuming the aircraft actually saw service (such as the TSR-2 and Avro Arrow), much of these may be cosmetic in nature (like a post-it note for how certain things actually function), others functional, but ultimately, the idea of these projects will be bring something different to DCS, something I think people will enjoy.

[notproplayer3]

31 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

 

Oh it is ambitious. Fortunately, I do know a few people with engineering degrees who are in a position to assist, or at least advise. As for figuring things out, admittedly a lot of things will be trial and error, but some things are knowns (like the engines and MFDs), so that will certainly help. Like you said, the challenge will ultimately be merging all of these systems into a single plane, which is a challenge the real world designers would've faced anyway.

 

As for ED, I have reached out to find out the requirements, and most of them are doable from the get-go. The challenge is going to be documentation (IE, manuals and such) on any of these aircraft, since any that existed would likely have been destroyed when their projects were canned, so, we'd have to create them from scratch. On top of that, many of the birds we plan to emulate may not be what's sitting in museums right now, but late-service versions with bits added assuming the aircraft actually saw service (such as the TSR-2 and Avro Arrow), much of these may be cosmetic in nature (like a post-it note for how certain things actually function), others functional, but ultimately, the idea of these projects will be bring something different to DCS, something I think people will enjoy.

Ultimately you'll probably figure what can be done and what can not be done once you get into the meat of the project so I guess it's too early to know how the guesswork will turn out. 

Having said that I am rooting for you to start developing your project once you find a team. 

Like you said, it is ambitious but heck, I think I might just be convinced that with the right team, anything could be pulled off.

As I said before, I really do wish you the best of luck and I'll buy anything exotic there is for DCS.

 

PS: I must admit, the TSR-2 is a sexy beast, I think out of the list you provided, this is the one I want the most  

[flyingscotsman]

All of the list have aircraft that are in museums, if you have a member near RAF Cosford museum for the TSR 2, 

Contact Cosford
T: 01902 376 200
cosford@rafmuseum.org

Royal Air Force Museum Cosford,
Shifnal, Shropshire TF11 8UP

 

That's the contact information, you could always give them a ring and ask if you can get photo's from inside, they may even have some on file. Good luck

 

[Tank50us]

11 hours ago, flyingscotsman said:

All of the list have aircraft that are in museums, if you have a member near RAF Cosford museum for the TSR 2, 

Contact Cosford
T: 01902 376 200
cosford@rafmuseum.org

Royal Air Force Museum Cosford,
Shifnal, Shropshire TF11 8UP

 

That's the contact information, you could always give them a ring and ask if you can get photo's from inside, they may even have some on file. Good luck

 

 

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, *I* don't live in the UK, but I do know someone who lives close by. I should point out that many of these aircraft will be in a 'modernized' configuration like they'd been in service for a while (allowing them to be competitive in more scenarios). The TSR for example will have an optional refueling probe, and the ability to carry weapons developed in the early 80s. But it's early life functionality will still be present.

[flyingscotsman]

https://www.pinterest.ca/maclean0525/tsr2/

 

Here's a link to many pictures and some colour drawings of the aircraft in projected colours. I have no problem with 'what if's", it would have been upgraded in the same way we had to upgrade every aircraft we've ever produced. There was and excellent article some years back in the annual Magazine for the RAF, had a whole 'story' of the TSR2 in service and the new missile systems it would have been able to carry. 'Fill your boots' as we say

[Porkins]

I always wondered what the F-18L was going to turn out like.  There's not much info I could find about development as the moratorium on exports to Iran killed a deal with Northrop that was for something like 400 units of the F-18L model.  That land based model was supposed to be developed and built with Northrop as the prime and McDonnel-Douglas as the secondary, a reverse of the agreement for the F/A-18 which was being developed at the same time.

 

Hornet performs darned well even with all the folding wings and carrier gear and other naval requirements weight.  Land model would have been lighter and unsure about the frame size and if they were using the F404, but imagine same avionics and engines as F/A-18 Hornet but with 4,000 lbs less weight?  I'm sure the F-16 would have had more competition internationally with a land based F-18 than the navalized Hornet.

[Spino]

The first one I'd like to see is the F-14E Super Tomcat (ST-21).  For that matter, throw in the AH-56 Cheyenne!  Now so far the only full-fidelity modules that have been made are real-life aircraft that actually saw service (F-14A/B for example).  I'm just not sure how ED would feel about having 3rd party modules (not free mods) of aircraft that either didn't get past the drawing board or prototype stage, given that DCS is supposed to be realistic.  On the flip side of that, I think that some of these machines might well help to level the playing field where aircraft like the upcoming Typhoon and Mi-24 are concerned (F-14E even though it would probably fight on the same side as the EF2000, and the AH-66).  I'd love to see this stuff in DCS, but have you considered that this sort of thing has never been done before and how ED might react to it?

1 minute ago, Spino said:

The first one I'd like to see is the F-14E Super Tomcat (ST-21).  For that matter, throw in the AH-56 Cheyenne!  Now so far the only full-fidelity modules that have been made are real-life aircraft that actually saw service (F-14A/B for example).  I'm just not sure how ED would feel about having 3rd party modules (not free mods) of aircraft that either didn't get past the drawing board or prototype stage, given that DCS is supposed to be realistic.  On the flip side of that, I think that some of these machines might well help to level the playing field where aircraft like the upcoming Typhoon and Mi-24 are concerned (F-14E even though it would probably fight on the same side as the EF2000, and the AH-66).  I'd love to see this stuff in DCS, but have you considered that this sort of thing has never been done before and how ED might react to it?

I know someone else already posted something about this, but this could be more of an issue than you think.  Maybe it's just me.

[F-2]

In terms of raw performance  the F-14A with the f401 or f101 engines and glove vains would preform basically the same as st21 and flight test documentation exists. Might be worth looking into.

[Spino]

Not really, the ST21 was supposed to use GE-129 engines, much more powerful than the F401.  An F-14A with the F101DFE engines might have similar performance, but the F401 had basically the same thrust output as the F100 that it was derived from IIRC, and is just overall worse than the F110-129 (perfect example of this being the F-15EX top speed and acceleration performance vs F-15Es with the F100-229, same thrust output (in theory) but in practice the F-15EX goes faster and accelerates faster).