no evidence just a feeling Delta wing behavior

[Mistang]

I'm pretty sure dcs doesn't accurately simulate the lift disadvantage of delta wings. For example the f 16 has a better climb rate and is respected by Rafael, gripen, etc pilots even if it's a worse turn rate on paper.

 

i think dcs like most flight sims would benefit from accurately simulating why straight wings were used in the first place- lift, the ability to turn and climb- because although delta wings win on the first turn they lose energy and can't vertical in real life. 

[Shmegegge 1-1 Aero]

That would be more of a flight model issue to bring up with the respective developers of those aircraft.  The Viper FM is still very much in EA, so expect it to change a lot as it develops.

[Mistang]

3 hours ago, [TF-108] Aero said:

That would be more of a flight model issue to bring up with the respective developers of those aircraft.  The Viper FM is still very much in EA, so expect it to change a lot as it develops.

There's a few other specific issues.

 

f 14 spin is way too easy to escape. In real life you lose thousands of feet of altitude and the recommended procedure is to eject.

 

The "Tokyo drift" behavior of many planes seems unrealistic and I'm sure air shows would feature that if it existed.

 

Ground effect and other complex surface behaviors seem under modeled.

 

but I'm going to be banned for whining anyway. This is not a criticism it's just a feature the old Jane's and micro prose sims had to varying degrees.

 

one thing I do like is being able to script microbursts and other ways to mess with the player using wind.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Mistang

[Mars Exulte]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mistang said:

I'm pretty sure dcs doesn't accurately simulate the lift disadvantage of delta wings

  You say without citing any particular information. Your ''personal opinion'' is not really relevant in and of itself. What ''reason'' do you have for what is clearly only your opinion?

 

On 6/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mistang said:

For example the f 16 has a better climb rate and is respected by Rafael, gripen, etc pilots even if it's a worse turn rate on paper.

  I don't see what relevance that has. You're also dealing with professional pilots trained to use their aircraft properly as opposed to gamers, that's going to be a significant factor.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mistang said:

i think dcs like most flight sims would benefit from accurately simulating why straight wings were used in the first place

  Which you have no reason to doubt, and could find plenty of information on had you bothered to even attempt to determine what DCS does or doesn't simulate.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mistang said:

- lift, the ability to turn and climb-

  That's not the reason straight wings are used, #1. They provide better, more stable lift and handling at subsonic speeds. ''Turn'' and ''climb'' is a different factor not directly related to wing shape.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mistang said:

because although delta wings win on the first turn they lose energy

  They do tend to function as a big airbrake at high AoA, it's true.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Mistang said:

and can't vertical in real life. 

  ''Can't vertical''? What does that even mean? That's a factor of thrust to weight more than wing shape, regardless.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

There's a few other specific issues.

  Oh dear...

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

f 14 spin is way too easy to escape.

  Not all spins are created equal. Some are severe, some are not. There are other factors involved, too, besides only airframe, mostly related to the hows and whys you entered a spin in the first place.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

In real life you lose thousands of feet of altitude

  It can, if it lasts very long. Again, this is circumstantial.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

and the recommended procedure is to eject.

  No. The recommended procedure for every plane in the history of aviation is ''save it if you can''. Ejecting comes into play if you drop below a certain altitude where you're unlikely to have enough time to save it. Gamers disregarding operational harddecks is not the game's fault, but generally this depends on what altitude you were at when entering the spin. At 20-30k ft, you have plenty of time to attempt recovery before even reaching any hard deck.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

The "Tokyo drift" behavior of many planes seems unrealistic

  I'm assuming you mean high angle of attack maneuvers? Ie the nose pointing one way and the plane moving another? That's very much a real thing and easily observed online if you want. It depends on the plane, though. A Su-27 can pull more alpha than say a P-51.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

and I'm sure air shows would feature that if it existed.

  They do.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

Ground effect and other complex surface behaviors seem under modeled.

  Again, you have no evidence to say so, and it's pretty clear your understanding of what you're talking about is ''hazy''. No offense, everyone starts somewhere.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

but I'm going to be banned for whining anyway.

  You won't be banned, but you're definitely not going to be taken seriously.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

This is not a criticism it's just a feature the old Jane's and micro prose sims had to varying degrees.

  I can with fair confidence most sims from the last 20-30 years were pretty rough around the simulation aspects. They didn't have the processing power for complex aerodynamics for one, but they could fake it pretty well sometimes.

 

18 hours ago, Mistang said:

one thing I do like is being able to script microbursts and other ways to mess with the player using wind.

  Afaik, you can't script stuff like that in DCS, but the wind does surge up and down and vary in direction a bit.

[Mistang]

 

Quote

The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft. I think the most challenging was the F-16, it’s a pretty small jet so it’s easy to lose sight of it. So I think that was the big one.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hushkit.net/2020/03/17/pilots-of-7-rival-fighter-aircraft-types-describe-dogfights-against-f-16s/amp/
Rafael pilot

 

so basically a f 16 is competitive against even a euro fighter.

https://asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/appliedmechanicsreviews/article-abstract/43/9/209/399157/Lift-Force-of-Delta-Wings?redirectedFrom=PDF.

 

Quote

A highly swept delta wing reaches the maximum lift at an angle of attack of about 40°, which is more than twice as high as that of a two-dimensional airfoil

 

deltas need a very high aoa. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mistang

[Mars Exulte]

5 minutes ago, Mistang said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hushkit.net/2020/03/17/pilots-of-7-rival-fighter-aircraft-types-describe-dogfights-against-f-16s/amp/
Rafael pilot

  A Rafael piloting dogging the nearly identical Eurofighter? Who would ever imagine such a thing? @@

 

5 minutes ago, Mistang said:

so basically a f 16 is competitive against even a euro fighter.

  Yes? Any fourth gen fighter is still competitive, that's why they still fly them. Aerodynamics is a finite science, there's a limit to what you can do with the laws of physics.

 

5 minutes ago, Mistang said:

deltas need a very high aoa. 

  Can GENERATE high AoA and NEEDS high AoA are two very different things. You need to read up on what this terminology actually means, because it does not mean what you seem to think it does.

[Mistang]

19 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  A Rafael piloting dogging the nearly identical Eurofighter? Who would ever imagine such a thing? @@

 

  Yes? Any fourth gen fighter is still competitive, that's why they still fly them. Aerodynamics is a finite science, there's a limit to what you can do with the laws of physics.

 

  Can GENERATE high AoA and NEEDS high AoA are two very different things. You need to read up on what this terminology actually means, because it does not mean what you seem to think it does.

literal paste from Wikipedia.

At low speeds, a delta wing requires a high angle of attack to maintain lift

 

[Mars Exulte]

8 hours ago, Mistang said:

literal paste from Wikipedia.

  Well, that does it, you clearly did a lot of research! @@ Not to be mean, but you need to work on building logical arguments and research.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[draconus]

3 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Well, that does it, you clearly did a lot of research! @@ Not to be mean, but you need to work on building logical arguments and research.

Not worth continuing unless you find fun it that. He already hijacked one thread with fantastic claims which end up closed:

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/267546-f-14b-acceleration-correct/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-4697073

[maxsin72]

17 hours ago, Mistang said:

literal paste from Wikipedia.

At low speeds, a delta wing requires a high angle of attack to maintain lift

 

Since it is not possible to answer to you in the other thread, i answer yo here. Here is when Okie explained how he pulled 12.5 G with F14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKA3ITCZt9o&t=1721s

Edited June 18, 2021 by maxsin72

[Mistang]

3 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

Since it is not possible to answer to you in the other thread, i answer yo here. Here is when Okie explained how he pulled 12.5 G with F14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKA3ITCZt9o&t=1721s

 

Ah thank you.

 

Im more interested in how he got such a precise g measurement when the gauge goes to ten. The gauge broke? Makes sense. 
 

He also implies the f 16 has more G. And only 9g.

 

and doenst mention the Doppler invisible mi 24/Cessna hordes 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mistang

[maxsin72]

2 minutes ago, Mistang said:

Ah thank you.

 

Im more interested in how he got such a precise g measurement when the gauge goes to ten. The gauge broke? Makes sense. 
 

He also implies the f 16 has more G. And only 9g.

F14 g gauge keep memory of the highest G force reached. Okie also told he usually go past 6.5 G and that F14 has huge high G capability. So you can understand that people told you the truth and that you are completely wrong about this argument.

[Mistang]

Just now, maxsin72 said:

F14 g gauge keep memory of the highest G force reached. Okie also told he usually go past 6.5 G and that F14 has huge high G capability. So you can understand that people told you the truth and that you are completely wrong about this argument.

He even disagrees with the tf30 claims from the posters here, he basically said it was fine and the only stalls were ones he got himself into. 

[maxsin72]

3 minutes ago, Mistang said:

He even disagrees with the tf30 claims from the posters here, he basically said it was fine and the only stalls were ones he got himself into. 

Okie was a great pilot with exceptional control on F14. Tf30 are very hard to control during a dogfight but he was able to do it, with F110 you can do what you want and you can forget stalls.

[Mistang]

I'm guessing you mean CADC or something is keeping the G recorded or there is something in the gauge itself. Either way accelerometers are really complicated and unreliable. 
This is why drones require GPS to even remain stable and you can try turning off GPS and get garbage behavior. 
As in consumer Walmart drones you can buy. Maybe now they have laser gyros or something that are better in military stuff.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mistang

[Mistang]

14 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

Okie was a great pilot with exceptional control on F14. Tf30 are very hard to control during a dogfight but he was able to do it, with F110 you can do what you want and you can forget stalls.

Sure.

 

Now, the F 4 was known to crack at 11g. The cat was about a third heavier.  What was special about the cat which gave it g tolerance? It doesn't scale to other aircraft at all.

[maxsin72]

16 minutes ago, Mistang said:

Sure.

 

Now, the F 4 was known to crack at 11g. The cat was about a third heavier.  What was special about the cat which gave it g tolerance? It doesn't scale to other aircraft at all.

Titanium, for airframe Grumman has used titanium

[Mistang]

6 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

Titanium, for airframe Grumman has used titanium

Hmm, so does phantom and a lot of navy aircraft. 

[maxsin72]

6 minutes ago, Mistang said:

Hmm, so does phantom and a lot of navy aircraft. 

F14 was a better project then F4, i think this is obvious...

 

[Mistang]

2 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

F14 was a better project then F4, i think this is obvious...

 

You always you words like that. "It's better because it's better".

[GGTharos]

41 minutes ago, Mistang said:

Now, the F 4 was known to crack at 11g. The cat was about a third heavier.  What was special about the cat which gave it g tolerance? It doesn't scale to other aircraft at all.

 

It was engineered for it.  You know what else doesn't scale?  C-130s pulling 5g and B-1Bs pulling 6g.  Yet they do.

Edited June 18, 2021 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:07 PM, Mistang said:

I'm pretty sure dcs doesn't accurately simulate the lift disadvantage of delta wings.

 

Cool, provide charts and aerodynamic papers proving any of this.

[Mistang]

4 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

It was engineered for it.  You know what else doesn't scale?  C-130s pulling 5g and B-1Bs pulling 6g.  Yet they do.

 

Id love to see a 6g herc.

 

The lancer has terrible t/w and wing loading compared to any fighter. 

 

Quote

Cool, provide charts and aerodynamic papers proving any of this.

I actually did. 

[GGTharos]

No, you actually did not.

 

You said:  "I'm pretty sure dcs doesn't accurately simulate the lift disadvantage of delta wings. "

 

So, what is

1) The lift disadvantage of delta wings (actually define the problem)

2) What should we see in DCS (ie. what do we see IRL)

3) Where are your graphs from tests in DCS comparing delta wing behavior to real life behavior?

 

Get to work.

 

Any of your comments will be rejected unless you provide #3.

 

Not references to pilots saying things, not wikipedia, youtube, or anything else like that.

Provide the comparative work.

Edited June 18, 2021 by GGTharos

[Mistang]

1 minute ago, GGTharos said:

No, you actually did not.

 

You said:  "I'm pretty sure dcs doesn't accurately simulate the lift disadvantage of delta wings. "

 

So, what is

1) The lift disadvantage of delta wings (actually define the problem)

2) What should we see in DCS

3) Where are your graphs from tests in DCS comparing delta wing behavior to real life behavior?

 

Get to work.

It's the paper I posted and referenced multiple times. 
 

I'll get the rest.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mistang