General ATGM questions and discussion

[S. Low]

After I stopped tipping the tricycle over and blowing up on takeoff, I finally got around to shooting stuff on the firing range quick starts.

 

What immediately stood out was how easy to use Petrovich is (I’m going to end up calling him Pete, bois). Make sure you bind his menu commands to a hat switch. Tell him to look for a target where you’re looking. He locks it or gives you a list of multiple targets. You pick one. Then fire. Awesome.

 

It’s so intuitive and easy to use it probably makes the hind better than the ka-50. But here’s where my questions are.

 

How does the hind atgm differ from the ka-50 (vikhrs)? Is it shorter range I think? Like 5km vs 8km? Not too bad a change. How about the lock on method, is it fire and forget or does Pete have to keep the target sighted until impact?

 

is it a weaker warhead?

 

Using the atgm with the ka-50 is tricky in flight and really benefits from being in auto hover. But that’s dangerous in itself. The hind with Pete is simple and effective. I like it a lot

[sublime]

I agree.  Attack runs are fairly viable even with the robot aiming ai. Surprisingly.  I mean don't get me wrong you'll eat it alot and probably quicker than IRL.

But I was surprised how often I took hits with no apparent effect (angle the stalinium rotor to shield!)

Thank God the balloon never went up. The west had no idea it was dealing with unbreakable rotor blades o death

Hopefully they in the future allow a couple more Pete commands.  For example one dealing with his ASO switch.  Even if it's 'goto next 'cartridge'. 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by sublime

[Blackeye]

17 minutes ago, Relic said:

How does the hind atgm differ from the ka-50 (vikhrs)? Is it shorter range I think? Like 5km vs 8km? Not too bad a change. How about the lock on method, is it fire and forget or does Pete have to keep the target sighted until impact?

 

The version we have now (9M114) has a weaker warhead and less range <5km - later we should get the 9M120 Ataka with a warhead very similar to the one in the Vikhrs and with a slightly longer range (<6km) than the 9M114 but still less than the Vikhr.

 

There is no "lock" - Pete or the other player in MP has to manually keep the sight centered on the target, which means that you have to keep the target in sight and aim for a fairly stable flight. Similar to a full manual shot in the Ka-50 but without ground stabilization aid.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Blackeye

[wowbagger]

Edit: what he   of the quicker draw said.

 

Lower range, weaker warhead. Noticeably.

 

It's not fire and forget, the operator has to track the ATGM all the way to the target. I believe it's following a beam similar to the vikhr, but the beam is manually aimed in this case.

 

Doing attack runs with Pete taking out AA threat and then finishing up with rockets and guns is great heaps of fun.

 

Also, because of the simple Petro interface it's pretty easy to bind certain things to VoiceAttack if you use it.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by wowbagger

[sublime]

I wasn't exactly sure so I held my tongue

Joking aside though she's a total beast.  You can almost :feel: the chaos you cause on an attack run

[wowbagger]

Overflying, recklessly, through the billows of smoke you just created ...  and then seeing green tracers chasing you out of it on the other side?

 

It'll never get old.

[S. Low]

So the biggest draw back I’m seeing is simply the ka50 in a hover at 8k can take down an entire armored column before the column aaa gets into range, whereas the hind in forward flight has time for one shot before breaking off , going downwind, then restarting attack run.

 

Each its own tool, but I like the hind much better so far.

[wowbagger]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

.. the hind in forward flight has time for one shot before breaking off , going downwind, then restarting attack run.

 

Well sure, if you 're going to be all risk averse and responsible.

 

Only joking. You're totally right, which is why they were usually flown in groups, running in on the target, one after the other. 

 

Agree, much more fun than plinking from behind a tree 8km away. 

[S. Low]

1 minute ago, wowbagger said:

 

Well sure, if you 're going to be all risk averse and responsible.

 

Only joking. You're totally right, which is why they were usually flown in groups, running in on the target, one after the other. 

 

Agree, much more fun than plinking from behind a tree 8km away. 

Must snipe the AAA so I can spam my rockets weeeee

[Fri13]

16 minutes ago, Relic said:

What immediately stood out was how easy to use Petrovich is (I’m going to end up calling him Pete, bois).

 

Just call him as "Petro"....

 

16 minutes ago, Relic said:

Make sure you bind his menu commands to a hat switch. Tell him to look for a target where you’re looking. He locks it or gives you a list of multiple targets. You pick one. Then fire. Awesome.

 

I have a problem, as the CCIP pipper should be slaved to the sight position. I don't get that. I have no idea where the operator is aiming and I need to point helicopter around to hear the tone and know that what was that "IFV 1". 

 

16 minutes ago, Relic said:

It’s so intuitive and easy to use it probably makes the hind better than the ka-50. But here’s where my questions are.

 

Sure, it is little bit like cheating. You have someone else doing the targeting and guidance. 

 

16 minutes ago, Relic said:

How does the hind atgm differ from the ka-50 (vikhrs)? Is it shorter range I think? Like 5km vs 8km? Not too bad a change. How about the lock on method, is it fire and forget or does Pete have to keep the target sighted until impact?

 

Vikhr has over 1000 mm RHA penetration value after ERA (explosive armor). The Shturm and Ataka has 650/800 mm behind ERA if I remember now correctly.

And Vikhr can get to 10 km if you launch it from higher altitude and at high speed, but at low altitude and in hover you have about 8 km (more like a 7.5 km).

 

The Vikhr is laser beamrider. It works such way that Shkval targeting system locks on something via contrast, or you just keep it pointed. On the moment of launch the laser beam is wide and low energy. The laser beam has a quarter coded areas in it. It will be shaped by timer and power is increased so it gets narrower and more powerful beam. The beam is calculated to stay about 7 meters wide in the distance here Vikhr is flying. This way the guidance mode doesn't trip the Laser Warning Receivers on targets. The Vikhr missile has in the rear a sensor, and the missile reads the laser code that in which sector it is in side the beam. And as the missile is swirling around, it constantly is moving around the laser beam. It has one control surface to steer the missile for tighter turn. And this it does as long until it becomes to flight path here it is flying inside all the laser coded areas - in the center of the beam, that is pointed by the Shkval/Pilot on the target. This is why you can't really intercept the targeting or jam the guidance because missile is looking backwards toward the helicopter, and helicopter is firing laser toward the missile and target. 

You can only launch one or two Vikhr at the same time on the same target. When you set launch mode to Long, you launch two Vikhr missiles and the laser guidance is started only on the second Vikhr launch. Both Vikhr will be following the same beam. If you range or lock something middle of the guidance, the laser is reset and guidance is lost and missiles are lost.

 

The Shturm/Ataka are radio guided missiles. Similar principle that there is antenna in the missile and Mi-24 sends a radio guidance commands to missile to witch direction to steer.

I don't now recall which one it was, but there are such systems where you have flare behind a missile that the targeting system tracks and sends a guidance commands to missile to move that missile in center of the line of sight. Or it is a similar "beam rider" where radio signal is sent that has similar polarization and missile tries to fly center of the signals.

But point is that the system use radio, and is so on possibly jammed with ECM.

 

One of the major differences is that Vikhr is extremely fast missile. It flies over Mach 1, when example TOW is sub-sonic. The Ataka doesn't seem to be slow either, but it should be IIRC something like 1.6 vs 1.2 on average speed. This makes it possible to engage many SAM systems or similar missile systems as those will hit them sooner and so on destroy the guidance system, or allow to get back in cover after attack. 

 

16 minutes ago, Relic said:

is it a weaker warhead?

 

Little bit, but Vikhr another feature is that it has a pre-fragmentation sleeve against soft-targets and aircraft. It has as well a proximity fuze. 

Someone wiser could clarify that does the Ataka has proximity fuze as well, as there is problems earlier that both were mistaken to same, and Vikhr was even thought to have IR seeker.

So possibility is that both have proximity fuze and alternative fragmentation warhead.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Relic said:

Using the atgm with the ka-50 is tricky in flight and really benefits from being in auto hover. But that’s dangerous in itself. The hind with Pete is simple and effective. I like it a lot

 

I don't see problem in the KA-50 using Vikhr. As the helicopter flies itself when you check the Shkval. The problem is really DCS simulation that there is no such thing as contrast lock. That is the key feature in the Shkval that you should be able lock it on anything that has contrast. It doesn't even need to be vehicle or anything, as long you get the center of the shkval on target (even hold by manually) and it will fly there. Another problem is that for some odd reason the Shkval will start moving by itself around, even if you are in perfect hover or slow speed, the system just "loses it" and starts turning on random direction and you can't relock or you can't control it as it just keeps going.  

[S. Low]

Awesome info, thanks. I’m sticking with Pete lol. I don’t see him as cheating, it’s just a human analogue. The ai has some things better than a player and some things worse than a player. Regarding the ka50 one of the issues I personally had was reduced SA keeping my head glued to a screen looking for targets, then fiddling with the bad lock system that seemed to never work right. And then something I missed would shoot at me lol. So I’d prefer hovering at range.

 

what’s the issue you’re having with Pete’s targeting? How are you setup? I have the menu up, down, left, right set to a four-way hat, and Pete on/off command set to the clicking of that hat. Then a separate button to command Pete to setup the weapons.

 

once you click the menu on button it brings up that funky axis/crosshair that shows where to tell Pete to look. Look to target vicinity and click menu up (or maybe menu right... I’m forgetting all of a sudden) and Pete will do a lock or give you a selection menu on screen. Up/down to pick target, then menu click right to select.

 

Also doing a long click has different commands but I don’t recall what they do.

 

 

[wowbagger]

28 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

...I have a problem, as the CCIP pipper should be slaved to the sight position. I don't get that. I have no idea where the operator is aiming and I need to point helicopter around to hear the tone and know that what was that "IFV 1". 

 

 

Sure, it is little bit like cheating. You have someone else doing the targeting and guidance. ..

 

 

The pipper (which isn't really CCIP in ATGM mode) is going to be where Pete is looking with the periscope sight - which should only be, at this point in development, where you told him to look for a target.

 

Pete also isn't infallible - quite the opposite. He will miss, and he will launch beyond max range if you give him launch authority too early.

Edited June 17, 2021 by wowbagger

[Fri13]

32 minutes ago, Relic said:

I don’t see him as cheating, it’s just a human analogue. The ai has some things better than a player and some things worse than a player.

 

Didn't say it is cheating, but little like. As you don't need to deal with the human communication problem

"Look at your left, there is that ¤#!""#¤ second white building, just right of it is something, do you see it?"

"No, I see a red house..."

 

With a good human co-player one should be very effective in the Mi-24P, as when you get the communication thing flowing then you work together more effectively than you can with the Petrovich.

But get a bad player or one that you don't sync well, then Petrovich will be very valuable.

 

I just like to see what it gets later on, so it could call the targets it spots when just cruising around etc. And if it even could assist with navigation somewhat. 

 

32 minutes ago, Relic said:

Regarding the ka50 one of the issues I personally had was reduced SA keeping my head glued to a screen looking for targets, then fiddling with the bad lock system that seemed to never work right. And then something I missed would shoot at me lol. So I’d prefer hovering at range.

 

It is easy to get there to situation that you just bury your head inside cockpit. Utilizing the auto-scan feature and as well just the speed and such will allow one to keep head out almost constantly. Just requiring to look screen when performing the lock. If it would work... 

 

32 minutes ago, Relic said:

what’s the issue you’re having with Pete’s targeting? How are you setup? I have the menu up, down, left, right set to a four-way hat, and Pete on/off command set to the clicking of that hat. Then a separate button to command Pete to setup the weapons.

 

I forgot that I flip the master arm on the pilot seat by habit, overriding the Petrovich CCIP sync.

That happens when you watch some video (Wags tutorials) and you don't get a full manual that would explain all system relationship to other systems.

So of course I was stuck to idea that pilot master arm can be On for readying yourself for a gun/rocket attack after missiles etc and you just disable the pilot CCIP calculation with AUTO/MAN switch in ASP-17 sight. 

 

32 minutes ago, Relic said:

once you click the menu on button it brings up that funky axis/crosshair that shows where to tell Pete to look. Look to target vicinity and click menu up (or maybe menu right... I’m forgetting all of a sudden) and Pete will do a lock or give you a selection menu on screen. Up/down to pick target, then menu click right to select.

 

Also doing a long click has different commands but I don’t recall what they do.

 

Yes those are well remembered already

 

 

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

 

 

The pipper (which isn't really CCIP in ATGM mode) is going to be where Pete is looking with the periscope sight - which should only be, at this point in development, where you told him to look for a target.

 

It isn't a CCIP sure, but it is better known as "CCIP pipper" than "moving sight" etc.

The Petrovich will scan the area (how far and wide, dunno) and will as well tell that it can't find anything if you command it to search something at sea

 

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

Pete also isn't infallible - quite the opposite. He will miss, and he will launch beyond max range if you give him launch authority too early.

 

More like it finds a target and there is just good nice small pathway there and it likely will in final moments of course hit the obstacle...

Clearly our Petrovich has too high expectations from his skills at this moment.

 

[S. Low]

Hah. I suggest controls to a guy that has set up a guide for them. I’ll see myself out.

[sublime]

13 minutes ago, Relic said:

Hah. I suggest controls to a guy that has set up a guide for them. I’ll see myself out.

Nah man don't feel that way.  We all are learning the mi24 right now

[Miro]

I'll never know when i'm in range, as a pilot with AGTMs, Pete is so quiet. When You let him decide is trigger happy, shooting from 11km distance...

[hornblower793]

The trigger happy is a known issue and will be resolved during EA

[Fri13]

14 hours ago, Relic said:

Hah. I suggest controls to a guy that has set up a guide for them. I’ll see myself out.

Don't leave ;). Everyone needs to find out what works best for them. Like many controllers don't have 5 way hat, or some might want to use buttons or voice commands.

[Fri13]

10 hours ago, hornblower793 said:

The trigger happy is a known issue and will be resolved during EA

 

Hopefully the spotted target list gets some extra info. Estimated range and little bit their positions in the group/area. 

 

IFV 1, closest and left, over 5 km.

IFV 2, further and center.

APC 1, farthmost and right.

APC 2, farthmost and far right.

AAA 1, middle.

 

Would help that is Petrovich estimates target distance to over 5 km, then he will not engage the target automatically. Then you can override him and command fire if player decides range is enough.

 

 

As well if there are many similar type of targets, they could be actually grouped.

 

Up = list up

Down = list down

Right = select type / target

Left =  type list

 

This way in a proper combat formation where you have over 40 APC, 3-6 MBT, 3-6 AAA and 3 SAM, and others, you can quickly select the type first to go hunting.

 

 

[Schmidtfire]

Since we are discussing ATGM's... has anyone figured out how to launch them boresighted from the pilot seat?

[wowbagger]

You can boresight Petro's target acquisition, but I don't know if I'd consider it a boresighted launch, because he still has to acquire the target for you as usual.

Quote

If you wish, you can also designate targets for Petrovich using the ASP-17. (This is useful for players who do not have head-tracking hardware.) Place the target within the ASP-17 fixed reticle and press the Select target with ASP-17/Order to fire command binding.

 

- pg 72 Mi-24P Quick Start Manual

 

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

You can boresight Petro's target acquisition, but I don't know if I'd consider it a boresighted launch, because he still has to acquire the target for you as usual.

 

That was the simplified control for AI. So it is similar to "lock closest target" command in fighters.

 

 

[wowbagger]

I don't understand your comment, but the Select target with ASP-17/Order to fire is designed so you can designate a target search area using the sight instead of mouse/head tracking. If you use it to designate an area, he will search that area exactly as if you has used the menu + mouse/head tracking method.  If you use it designate an empty area, Petro will move the sight there but be unable to find a target.

[5ephir0th]

About ATGM workflow, it looks like if you break with sight doors you damage the gyro of the sight so you must close the doors BEFORE the break or theres another method? It really damage the gyro if you break hard or it simply mismatch and turning off Observe switch and back to on (waiting the 15 secs of gyro starting) fix it?

[wowbagger]

3-4 minutes re-alignment, not 15 sec.

 

I have the Observe input bound to my joystick, so I can close the doors, from the rear cockpit, before banking hard. Also, if you switch to guns/rockets it closes the doors and I think locks the gyros in place. I either close the doors with Observe keybind or switch to a different weapon before maneuvers and it seems to keep the gyros happy.

 

The Quickstart Manual states:

 

Quote

When you are in the Pilot-Commander seat, Petrovich will turn off the targeting gyros if you make large cyclic inputs. We still recommend explicitly commanding Petrovich to switch off the targeting gyrosusing Menu Down Short prior to performing aggressive maneuvers.