solved Rippling bombs in CCRP - CBU97 vs MK82 why is the center of the ripple different - solved

[darkman222]

I did a bomb run with CBU 97 and MK82. Each with a spacing of 500 ft. In CCRP mode. And I realized that with MK82 the last bomb hits the CCRP target. The other ones explode in a line leading towards the CCRP Target.

When I did the same with CBU 97 I saw them spread out in a nice cicle around the the target.

Where does that inconsistency come from and how can the pilot differentiate between the two approaches?
I am pretty sure I did a good bombing run as the target/waypoint was pre-planned and not moving.

 

See the tacview screenshot:

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by darkman222

[SFJackBauer]

To be fair I noticed some of my ripple bombing runs falling short, but I didnt went and test it again, probably because I didn't used such a large spacing.

 

Will do some testing now.

 

EDIT: Nope, can't reproduce. Pair, 6 pulses, 500ft spacing. CCRP on the runway crossing. The 4th pulse got there.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by SFJackBauer

[=52d= Skip]

To compare results you both would need to use the same release parameters, which I think you didn´t.

[darkman222]

I created a new test mission. And tried under identical conditions. Now MK82 and CBU97 are rippled in a way that the last bomb hits the CCRP target. All the other ones will drop in a line leading towards the target.

I dont know what that was last time I tried it. Is there an option in SMS page I might have activated accidentally? So that made the ripple being centered around the CCRP target.

Edited June 29, 2021 by darkman222

[SFJackBauer]

I'm assuming you are on the latest open beta, right?

 

What I did was:

- New mission, weather default

- In mission planning, position the waypoint 2 where I wanted to hit and set my a/c to 5000 feet / 450 knots

- Jump to the mission

- Select A2G, set to pair, set pulses to 6, spacing to 500ft, mode to CCRP

- Fly straight and level

- Pickle and hold the button on crossing the line on the HUD until all bombs are out.

 

It is weird that you are having differerent results with a different mission, it shouldn't matter in principle.

 

I'll do some more runs today and report if I see anything out of ordinary.

Edited June 29, 2021 by SFJackBauer

[darkman222]

Latest open beta. Yes.

I dont want to cause confusion here. Maybe I did something wrong intially. So I will have to try it a third time.

My inital run was with a spacing of 300 ft.

This time I wanted to push it to the limits with a spacing of 900 ft. The difference to the first run was I did not use pair but single instead.

 

I will create a mission based on what you suggested. Also I will try if pair and single makes a difference.

 

The only thing that I really want to know at that point if someone knows what would be the correct result to expect?

 

Last bomb of the ripple hits the target, or the middle one, or the first one. Does someone know?

 

[=52d= Skip]

6 hours ago, darkman222 said:

 

The only thing that I really want to know at that point if someone knows what would be the correct result to expect?

 

Last bomb of the ripple hits the target, or the middle one, or the first one. Does someone know?

 

 

If you drop an even number of Bombs the Target should be bracketed; pretty much like your CBU-97 pic in the first post with 2 and 3 landing in front and behind the Target.

Using an uneven number, the middle Bomb (say 3 of 5) should be dead on.

[TobiasA]

There is something with CCRP precision on the CBU-97 which I didn't find out yet. 

I think there is a somewhat degraded precision if you drop outside of 1G at pickle. Which would be correct but I sometimes mess that up with CCIP. 

I am surprised you see accuracy effects. I can bomb a tank with snakeeyes but I struggle to hit with CBU-97 quite often. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by TobiasA

[Frederf]

All bomb release math, CCIP/DTOS/CCRP is center stick = center target.

 

I tried 12x999' with BDU-33 and then measured total stick length. It should be 11x999' (3349m)

first 329548 630258

last 326768 632499

delta 2780 2241 = 3570m only 6.5% bigger not bad

 

So bomb total length is OK. Next I compare 1 pair of bombs to aimpoint:

average impact 328197 631283

aimpoint 328291 631221

delta 95 62 = 113m (372ft)

 

Ballistics not so good going 372' beyond where I aimed.

 

Because ballistics of BDU-33 (and probably other weapons) don't line up with release calculation so much one has to be careful when using smaller spacing and making conclusions about how it works in terms of first-last bomb alignment. Bauer's picture shows a miss if aimpoint was truck. #3 bomb should be short one half interval, #4 bomb should be long one half interval. The fact that #4 bomb hit target means that entire pattern is shifted one half interval too short.

[darkman222]

I was not wondering about the precision, but how the logic behind rippling bombs work. Yesterday I did a quick test run and for some reason again the the middle bombs of the ripple hit the target.

I have to test it one more time with single and pair. I was in a hurry yesterday.

So imagine you want to cover a whole runway with bombs. You'd need to know where to place the target when rippling bombs with a big amount of space in between.

Edited July 1, 2021 by darkman222

[TobiasA]

I must admit that I select single and do the spacing on my own when bombing a runway since I am very unsure about that. 

It also ensures at least one bomb lands on intersections of runways. 

[Xavven]

@darkman222 can you post a track? Impact point can be affected by wind, yaw, G, etc.

[SFJackBauer]

16 hours ago, Frederf said:

Bauer's picture shows a miss if aimpoint was truck. #3 bomb should be short one half interval, #4 bomb should be long one half interval. The fact that #4 bomb hit target means that entire pattern is shifted one half interval too short.

 

Well, guess what... I went back to the mission and found that even though I put the truck in the crossing, the steerpoint itself was not over it, but right at the spot between bomb groups 3 and 4. When flying the mission itself it was hard to see on the HUD because of the alignment. Somehow due to luck it hit the truck on release 4.

 

So it looks dead accurate to me!

[darkman222]

So this is weird. My CCRP target is the runway crossing. It was done every time in autopilot with the same steerpoint. So it was not poor flying on my side

One single bomb in CCRP hits the crossing. One pair hits the crossing too.

Rippling single bombs and the middle bomb hits the crossing. So its 50 % hits towards the runway start and 50 % towards the runway end.

 

If I do the same run rippling pairs it seem to favor the runway start. The middle pair of bombs hit before the crossing. So 70 % of the bombs favor the runway start.

Watch the video. Same result with a spacing of 500 ft and 900 ft. Why is that happening?

 

 

Zipped Trackfiles:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kk1zvbdiuf2ml70/20210701_f16_bombing.rar?dl=0

 

So the initial assumption that there is a difference between MK82 and CBU97 is wrong. Because I think the difference was the ripple in single and pair.

Edited July 2, 2021 by darkman222

[Xavven]

Looks like a good bug report to me! Very thorough testing. Nice work, @darkman222 I'll see if I can reproduce the problem.

EDIT: For clarity, I am not a dev. Just a player.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Xavven

[Xavven]

Okay, I was able to reproduce the problem by entering in the incorrect number of ripple pulses.

 

When you are in PAIR mode, you should divide the ripple pulses in half.

 

For example, if I have 6 Mk-82 bombs, I could do either Single, ripple 6      OR     Pair, ripple 3

 

If I do Pair, ripple 6, then the jet is expecting 12 bombs and 6 impact points, and attempting to bracket the target between the first 3 and last 3 impact points. Since I only have 6 bombs, I end up with 3 impact points and they are all short of the target. Does that explain your problem, @darkman222?

 

EDIT: Okay yeah, I just watched your pair 500 ft track. You have 12 mk-82s total and you did pair, ripple 9. The aircraft is expecting 18 bombs, or put another way, 9 pairs, but you only have 6 pairs, so there are 3 pairs missing that would have fallen past the target. Fix this by setting to pair ripple 6. Each ripple "pulse" releases a pair, so 6 pulses x2 pairs = 12 bombs.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Xavven

[darkman222]

@Xavven Thanks that was the solution. I thought the F16 SMS computer was smart enough to determine if there is enough bombs available for the requested amount of ripples. But obviously does not. Dont know if that will happen in a real F16 too.

 

Like you said. When I was using pairs the F16 ran out of bombs to complete the ripple.

I did it for demonstration purpose in my video with only 2 bombs loaded but setting the ripple to 9 bombs. Which is exactly the outcome to expect as long as the F16 does not compensate for the pilot error.

 

And like @=52d= Skipsaid. Only an uneven number will hit the target dead in center.

 

The only question that remains is if the F16 will compensate for that pilot error in real life or not.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by darkman222