3070 TI for DCS?

[cyberaxcess]

Hi,

 

Can anyone here with a 3070 or 3070 TI please give me some fps numbers (with settings being used) in DCS 2.7.x ?

I would like to get an idea of how much of an improvement upgrading from my RX5700XT to a 3070 TI would be...

 

I'm running in 2560x1440 resolution, 2D only (no VR).

I get ok'ish fps for the most part currently (albeit with lots of things turned down), so anything more would be great, especially if I can up some of the graphics settings as well!

I'm also done with all the shimmering on all the edges of everything on the ground, it's really killing the immersion! I had it before in 2.5.6, but it's got really bad in 2.7. I've tried everything I could find on the issue (different resolutions/driver versions/AA/reshade etc. etc.), and I know its a DCS problem (no other game does it including MSFS2020). However a lot of people do not have the problem, so I can only put it down to something about the way that the amd drivers/hardware handle the AA.

 

The 3070 TI's are becoming more readily available at a more decent (although not great) price point in my part of the world (South Africa), so it seems the two flight sims I fly would both benefit from it and give me decent, playable fps for my (mostly single player learning to missions) flying, however I can't find any solid stats on these cards in DCS.

The 3080's/6700's/6800's are still too far more than what I am comfortable to pay for a graphics card.

 

Current machine specs: i7-9700 (non K) and water cooled with an AIO, 32Gb RAM, MSI RX5700 XT 8Gb Mech OC, SSD's for primary and secondary drives (both nvme's with DCS on the second one), all nicely housed in a Corsair 5000d Airflow with plenty of fans and good airflow, temps are all excellent (except for that damn hotspot on the 5700XT, but the main GPU temp sits a steady 75 under heavy load).

 

Appreciate any feedback from people who have a 3070 or 2070 TI.

Thanks!

Edited July 5, 2021 by cyberaxcess
Added pc spec's.

[Nuggetz]

Hello,

 

By coincidence I installed a RTX 3070 today and have been experimenting with settings, Maps with SP and MP versions. I upgraded from a RTX 2070 Super which I liked very much and produced 80-90 FPS in 2D with most settings maxed out. However I got into VR and while the 2070S coped well with SP it was less consistent in MP. 

 

It is only day one with the RTX 3070 but so far it has exceeded my expectations with most settings maxed out I have been getting 65-90 FPS VR in SP depending on map altitude etc. I have only done a little MP today on the Marianas Islands where I was getting 45 FPS on the taxiway and 60-70 general flying near the islands. Less FPS low level over the islands but I cannot recall the numbers. 
 

More tuning of settings tomorrow and I may be able to give more details after. 
 

So far I am pleased I didn’t stretch for another £600 to get a 3080 at this time. If you plan on 2D mainly then the  3070 would get my recommendation as so far it is holding up well in VR so will cope even better with a monitor. 
 

ATB Nuggetz 

 

PS: The RTX 2070 Super (6 months old only) will be going up for sale (UK) later this week for those who may be interested. 

 

3700XCPU,  EVGA RTX 3070 FTW3, 32GB DDR4 @ 3600, 500 GB SSD x 2 Nvme, 1 TB HD

Edited July 5, 2021 by Nuggetz

[cyberaxcess]

Awesome!

Thanks, would appreciate more feedback once you’ve got it all tuned in. 

[Nuggetz]

Will do

[Nuggetz]

Just run some tests with the following settings at 2560 x 1440:

 

All views looking forward with HUD and Instruments in view as well as sky. 

NTTR Map Free Flight instant Action:

 

8500 feet 107 FPS, 600 feet open ground 96 FPS, Vegas 72 FPS, high alt clear sky 120-140 FPS. 
 

Syria free flight instant action:

1100 feet coastal town 74-76 FPS, Open hills 5000 feet 85-89 FPS, high altitude 30000 feet over open hills with very high cloud 105 FPS. 
 

obviously quoted FPS varies but these  are the approximate averages in each scenario. 
 

hope it helps with your choice. 
 

ATB Nuggetz

 

 

 

 

[Rongor]

I think we also should mention loudness values in decibels nowadays for graphics cards...

Edited July 6, 2021 by Rongor

[cyberaxcess]

2 hours ago, Nuggetz said:

Just run some tests with the following settings at 2560 x 1440:

 

All views looking forward with HUD and Instruments in view as well as sky. 

NTTR Map Free Flight instant Action:

 

8500 feet 107 FPS, 600 feet open ground 96 FPS, Vegas 72 FPS, high alt clear sky 120-140 FPS. 
 

Syria free flight instant action:

1100 feet coastal town 74-76 FPS, Open hills 5000 feet 85-89 FPS, high altitude 30000 feet over open hills with very high cloud 105 FPS. 
 

obviously quoted FPS varies but these  are the approximate averages in each scenario. 
 

hope it helps with your choice. 
 

ATB Nuggetz

 

 

 

 

 

This is great, thank you very much!

Puts my mind at ease and shows that a 3070/TI will definitely be a big improvement for me.

If I can get those kind of fps's with those settings I will be a very happy pilot  And I don't mind turning a thing or two down a little if really needed, but I suspect that should keep me happy for a couple of years.

 

I take it you don't have any of the shimmering edges issues?

Could you indulge us with a couple of screen shots when you get a chance 

 

Thanks for this, really appreciate it!

Let us know how it goes with the VR performance on this card. I'm not going that route, but it might help some other here who are looking at upgrading to the lower end cards.

 

 

1 hour ago, Rongor said:

I think we also should mention loudness values in decibels nowadays for graphics cards...

 

 This is certainly a consideration between the different brands card, but I gather it's an improvement over the older cards, especially over the older AMD's (my 5700 XT is a very noisy beast out the box - I had to tweak the fan curve quite a bit until I found a balance between noise and heat/performance that was acceptable).

Edited July 6, 2021 by cyberaxcess
typo's!

[Nuggetz]

Quote

I take it you don't have any of the shimmering edges issues?

Could you indulge us with a couple of screen shots when you get a chance 

I don’t think you can get away completely from some shimmering edges especially in VR. However the added performance from the 3070 allows me to set MSAA to X2 or X4 which does help a lot. 
 

Next time I am in 2D mode I will take a couple of screen shots with the FPS counter switched on as well. 
 

ATB Nuggetz 

 

PS the 3070 is a much quieter GPU vs the RTX 2070S so that is an added bonus 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Nuggetz

[Nuggetz]

Screenshot from Nellis AFB

 

 

Screenshot 2

 

[cyberaxcess]

1 hour ago, Nuggetz said:

I don’t think you can get away completely from some shimmering edges especially in VR. However the added performance from the 3070 allows me to set MSAA to X2 or X4 which does help a lot. 
 

Next time I am in 2D mode I will take a couple of screen shots with the FPS counter switched on as well. 
 

ATB Nuggetz 

 

PS the 3070 is a much quieter GPU vs the RTX 2070S so that is an added bonus 

 

A little shimmering here and there is acceptable, but every corner on the ground (water edges and buildings and roofs, trees) is not (which is what I currently have). I noticed the 4x MSAA setting you used and was very pleased to see that with those FPS. That certainly does help with smoothing things out and reducing shimmering edges. I’m also hoping the future Vulkan changes also improve that issue as well. 

Bonus on the low noise!

 

1 hour ago, Nuggetz said:

Screenshot from Nellis AFB

 

 

Screenshot 2

 

gorgeous 

Thanks!

[Nuggetz]

No worries, pleased to help. 
 

I have only been into DCS/online gaming since Dec 2020, but even in the last 6 months I have seen improvements to FPS with software/driver updates. However, like you I am anticipating Vulkan upgrades with unbridled enthusiasm!

 

ATB Nuggetz

Edited July 6, 2021 by Nuggetz

[Sly870]

On 7/6/2021 at 12:15 PM, cyberaxcess said:

A little shimmering here and there is acceptable, but every corner on the ground (water edges and buildings and roofs, trees) is not (which is what I currently have). I noticed the 4x MSAA setting you used and was very pleased to see that with those FPS. That certainly does help with smoothing things out and reducing shimmering edges. I’m also hoping the future Vulkan changes also improve that issue as well. 

Bonus on the low noise!

 

gorgeous 

Thanks!

 

Hey bud,

My GPU is going back to Amazon tomorrow, 2080S, thinking of going 3070 Ti, have you made the switch yet? 

[cyberaxcess]

15 hours ago, Sly870 said:

 

Hey bud,

My GPU is going back to Amazon tomorrow, 2080S, thinking of going 3070 Ti, have you made the switch yet? 

 

Sadly not yet (saving up, selling off some old hardware as well to get there), but so far the plan is to move to a 3070 Ti as soon as I have enough saved up.

[LucShep]

Not going to discourage from the upgrading with these (currently) over-inflated prices. But I'd say to at least consider a few things before going for it:

1. Does that investment really translate into considerable gains, trully justifiable over what you already have?
In practice, and in general (depends on game) the RTX3070 is about 30% faster than RX5700XT and RTX2070Super, and its power draw (~235W) just a little higher than those, so one will (theoretically) be fine with same power supply. 
The RTX3070Ti is another 7% faster, but its power draw is quite higher (~300W). So, depending on what you got, you may need a new PSU as well (not a cheap extra).
Whether those 30-37(ish) percent are that needed and worth the investment, only you can decide.

2. Current prices of GPUs should gradually go down, and replacements are expected to launch by the end of the year.

- Nvidia is expected to launch the "Super" versions (~10% perf. boost?) of the RTX 3000 series in 4th quarter of this year. 
  And maybe less than a year later the RTX4000 series (according to tech rumours, huge perf. jump expected).
- AMD is already suggesting another huge 50% perf. jump with RDNA3 (RX7000 series, rumoured to be launched sometime early next year).
 

FWIW, my own take on it is more or less like this....
Wants and needs, money and love for the hobby, are all things that differ between individuals. But we've seen people paying big money for something that, in the end, while definitely good, is not "WOW" like some seem to expect. 

I got an RX5700XT (undervolted, runs clean as a whistle) and, personally, that's why I'll only upgrade it for a GPU with a +50% performance boost over it. Because that's the kind of (tecno)logical progress that is tangible, like we used to have.

Currently, performance wise, that'd put my choice in either the RX6800XT or RTX3080, but those sell at prohibitive, ludicrous, unacceptable prices (therefore, nope). 

Edited July 24, 2021 by LucShep

[Svsmokey]

Good post , particularly the first part addressing the OP's concern . I personally don't think the Sly870 would gain much , if anything , going from a 2080S to a 3070 or 3070ti , beyond , perhaps , the ti's additional memory in some circumstances .

3 hours ago, LucShep said:

Not going to discourage from the upgrading with these (currently) over-inflated prices. But I'd say to at least consider a few things before going for it:

1. Does that investment really translate into considerable gains, trully justifiable over what you already have?
In practice, and in general (depends on game) the RTX3070 is about 30% faster than RX5700XT and RTX2070Super, and its power draw (~235W) just marginally higher than those, so one will (theoretically) be fine with same power supply. 
The RTX3070Ti is another 7% faster, but its power draw is quite higher (~300W). So, depending on what you got, you may need a new PSU as well (not a cheap extra).
Whether those 30-37(ish) percent are that needed and worth the investment, only you can decide.

2. Current prices of GPUs should gradually go down, and replacements are expected to launch by the end of the year.

- Nvidia is expected to launch the "Super" versions (~10% perf. boost?) of the RTX 3000 series in 4th quarter of this year. 
  And a year later the RTX4000 series (according to tech rumours, huge perf. jump expected).
- AMD is already suggesting another huge 50% perf. jump with RDNA3 (RX7000 series, rumoured to be launched sometime early next year).
 

FWIW, my own take on it is more or less like this....
Wants and needs, money and love for the hobby, are all things that differ between individuals. But we've seen people paying big money for something that, in the end, while definitely good, is not "WOW" like some seem to expect. 

I got an RX5700XT (undervolted, runs clean as a whistle) and, personally, that's why I'll only upgrade it for a GPU with a +50% performance boost over it. Because that's the kind of (tecno)logical progress that is tangible, like we used to have.

Currently, performance wise, that'd put my choice in either the RX6800XT or RTX3080, but those sell at prohibitive, ludicrous, unacceptable prices (therefore, nope). 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Svsmokey

[Sly870]

21 hours ago, Svsmokey said:

Good post , particularly the first part addressing the OP's concern . I personally don't think the Sly870 would gain much , if anything , going from a 2080S to a 3070 or 3070ti , beyond , perhaps , the ti's additional memory in some circumstances .

 

 

 

100% agree bud, only reason I am looking is my faulty 2080Super went back so I need to replace it and am stuck between 3070Ti, the EVGA FTW3 is £759.

[cyberaxcess]

On 7/23/2021 at 11:47 PM, LucShep said:

Not going to discourage from the upgrading with these (currently) over-inflated prices. But I'd say to at least consider a few things before going for it:

1. Does that investment really translate into considerable gains, trully justifiable over what you already have?
In practice, and in general (depends on game) the RTX3070 is about 30% faster than RX5700XT and RTX2070Super, and its power draw (~235W) just a little higher than those, so one will (theoretically) be fine with same power supply. 
The RTX3070Ti is another 7% faster, but its power draw is quite higher (~300W). So, depending on what you got, you may need a new PSU as well (not a cheap extra).
Whether those 30-37(ish) percent are that needed and worth the investment, only you can decide.

2. Current prices of GPUs should gradually go down, and replacements are expected to launch by the end of the year.

- Nvidia is expected to launch the "Super" versions (~10% perf. boost?) of the RTX 3000 series in 4th quarter of this year. 
  And maybe less than a year later the RTX4000 series (according to tech rumours, huge perf. jump expected).
- AMD is already suggesting another huge 50% perf. jump with RDNA3 (RX7000 series, rumoured to be launched sometime early next year).
 

FWIW, my own take on it is more or less like this....
Wants and needs, money and love for the hobby, are all things that differ between individuals. But we've seen people paying big money for something that, in the end, while definitely good, is not "WOW" like some seem to expect. 

I got an RX5700XT (undervolted, runs clean as a whistle) and, personally, that's why I'll only upgrade it for a GPU with a +50% performance boost over it. Because that's the kind of (tecno)logical progress that is tangible, like we used to have.

Currently, performance wise, that'd put my choice in either the RX6800XT or RTX3080, but those sell at prohibitive, ludicrous, unacceptable prices (therefore, nope). 

 

 

You make good points, and it's why I'm sitting wondering if I should do it or not, hence querying just how well it currently runs DCS...

The rest of the PC is all good, including sufficient PSU for an OC 3080. CPU (currently i7-9700) could do with an upgrade at some point, but it's good for a while still.

 

The choice for me, is a 3070 TI in the near future, whose prices are a more reasonable level for me and there is actually stock (probably because of the mining restrictions on them)... OR wait another year and pick up a used 3080 / 3080 TI when people buy the next gen. A new top end card is out of my reach (unless I save for the next 2 years)!!

 

However, if I wait another year, then I probably won't be able to sell off my 5700XT for anywhere near the same as it's current value, whereas currently I can get back about half of what the 3070 TI will cost me for it now. Also, if history has taught us anything, majority of people with 3080's etc. are not going to jump to a next gen when it comes out, they'll skip and go for the one after that, so the upper end cards used values will still be quite high for a while...

 

I am leaning towards to the 3070 TI for now, as I can get back a reasonable amount back for my current card, and I'm pretty sure a 3070 ti will last another 2-3years for me, during which if I'm clever enough (doubtful ) I can save as well and then upgrade to something really fancy (at which point I'll probably also need cpu/board etc.).

 

For me, the difference between the 5700XT and the 3070TI is having most things turned up high so I can enjoy better looking sims (both DCS and the other current sim by MS which I also fly), and still have reasonable fps. These are my primary games so that's what I care about. If DCS (or the other one) update again in that time that drops fps even more, then I can start turning things down again back to like now, and wait until I'm ready for the next upgrade. Whereas currently if the fps goes downhill due to more tech changes, I'm going to end up with a not very good looking sim and with poor performance...

 

Whilst the 5700XT currently does a good job, quite a bit in the settings is turned down so that I get good fps across all maps (well, not counting Marianas) in all sorts of situations. What drives me crazy is the shimmering, which means I have to have MSAA on x4 to bring it to acceptable levels, which is quite a performance hit. Thus I'm not convinced it would last me another 1-3 years of playing keeping the fps the same. And then I do want the sims looking a bit better also 

 

Oh, and I'm a 2D player, not VR.

 

Yes it's not a huge performance increase to go to a 3070 TI, but I'm looking at it from a longer term with smaller steps to get up to the top performing cards as I cannot afford to go straight to the top end (and probably won't be able to in the mid term future). Those new card prices are not going to come down in hurry, they will just keep going up as does everything else.

There is no win, it's money lost which ever way you go... for me it's about which way can I go with losing the least amount and enjoying the ride at the same time!

[Nuggetz]

Hi Cyberaaxcess,

 

You asked in one of your early replies if I could provide some feedback on using VR with the RTX 3070.  I have done some testing this morning using the settings below. Note the PD setting in DCS and Oculus is set to 1.0 at 90Hz.  However, the PD in the Oculus debug tool is set to 1.2 and Asynchronous Warp set to Disabled, Distortion Curvature set Low, Pixels 3712 and Bitrate 350.

 

Obviously the FPS varies with map, altitude and scenery, but the following figures should provide a fair indication of what you could expect with the RTX 3070.  View was looking forward through the HUD, instruments and sky visible in the FOV:

 

NTTR Map Instant Action Free Flight: High Altitude 82 FPS, 77 FPS 6000 feet AGL over open ground, in circuit for Nellis AFB  68-71 @ 2500 feet reducing to 60-45 FPS on approach and on the runway. This Map is probably the least demanding on the GPU.

 

Syria Map Instant Action Free Flight: 40-45 FPS over the coastal Town at 1400 AGL.  Open countryside: 40-42 @5000 feet, 48-53 FPS @ 15000 feet 54-57 FPS @ 30000 feet.  The maximum FPS in clear sky at High Altitude was 82-83 FPS with 90 FPS for a second or two.

 

Caucasus Map GR Stoneburner Server (Multiplayer):  Taxiway 39-41 FPS, 44-45 FPS @ 5000 feet, Solid 45 FPS @ 15000 feet, 45-47 FPS @ 20000 feet, 48-52 FPS @ 25000 feet, 56-60 FPS @ 28000 feet, 60-63 @ 30000 feet, with a highest rate of 68-69 FPS at High Altitude.  Data was taken with about 10 players in the server and weather with about 4/8 cloud.  Multiplayer does cause a performance hit and I would not like to boost the settings any higher without the risk of FPS dropping off.  That said higher settings can be used especially in the NNTR Map in Single Player mode which is more pleasing on the eye.

 

The above were taken using a stock RTX 3070.  The figures taken below were captured using a mild overclock of 100MHz on the Core Clock and 200 MHz on the Memory Clock:

 

Caucasus Map GR Stoneburner Server (Multiplayer): Again data was taken with about 10 players in the server and weather with about 4/8 cloud:

 

On the ground and below 5000 foot clouds a solid 45 FPS.  Above the clouds mostly 45-55 but periods of higher altitude 50-68 FPS.  25000 feet and above 53-69 FPS was recorded.

 

The settings below allow for a solid 45+ FPS in any Map Single or Multiplayer while retaining a smooth image, decent quality of graphics and smooth head tracking when used with the Quest 2 VR Headset.  Although I have not listed any figures for the Marianas Islands from this mornings testing, I would say from memory that in Multiplayer Mode 45 FPS on the taxiway is possible, 33-35 low level over the Islands, but once away from the Islands over the Ocean figures of 65+ FPS are easily obtainable. 

 

Ultimately, I would like to upgrade to a RTX 3080 Ti so I can turn up the graphics to please the eye, but that is having to wait pending price reductions and hopefully Vulkan will help in the interim when available.  Performance wise the RTX 3070 is very capable in VR and 2D, but not all RTX 3070s are created equal so do your research accordingly.

 

Hope this helps you or others reading along.

 

ATB Nuggetz 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Nuggetz
Settings Image Updated

[cyberaxcess]

56 minutes ago, Nuggetz said:

You asked in one of your early replies if I could provide some feedback on using VR with the RTX 3070.  I have done some testing this morning using the settings below. Note the PD setting in DCS and Oculus is set to 1.0 at 90Hz.  However, the PD in the Oculus debug tool is set to 1.2 and Asynchronous Warp set to Disabled, Distortion Curvature set Low, Pixels 3712 and Bitrate 350.

 

 

Awesome, thank you so much for the feedback!

It certainly does give me an indication of where the 3070 sits for VR, and I'm sure it will help others who are looking at various cards.

[LucShep]

19 hours ago, cyberaxcess said:

 

You make good points, and it's why I'm sitting wondering if I should do it or not, hence querying just how well it currently runs DCS...

The rest of the PC is all good, including sufficient PSU for an OC 3080. CPU (currently i7-9700) could do with an upgrade at some point, but it's good for a while still.

 

The choice for me, is a 3070 TI in the near future, whose prices are a more reasonable level for me and there is actually stock (probably because of the mining restrictions on them)... OR wait another year and pick up a used 3080 / 3080 TI when people buy the next gen. A new top end card is out of my reach (unless I save for the next 2 years)!!

 

However, if I wait another year, then I probably won't be able to sell off my 5700XT for anywhere near the same as it's current value, whereas currently I can get back about half of what the 3070 TI will cost me for it now. Also, if history has taught us anything, majority of people with 3080's etc. are not going to jump to a next gen when it comes out, they'll skip and go for the one after that, so the upper end cards used values will still be quite high for a while...
 

Oh, and I'm a 2D player, not VR.

 

If you can sell the RX5700XT then it can be good upgrading to RTX3070Ti, as you can partially compensate the financial hit.

Some people are not comfortable doing this and, at the moment, for these cases such upgrade will be at a huge cost - and why I decided to post in the first place.

Just don't kid yourself thinking it'll last you long before noticing its limitations too.  Plus, there's always something better tempting us in the horizon...

Personally, I run 4K 60Hz with DCS 2.56 (personal preference, huge dislike for DCS 2.7's colors representation), and I have no issues whatsoever with my RX5700XT.

No problem with temps, especially since undervolted (here, maximum temps after 3 heavy stress rounds of Heaven Bench are just 70ºC GPU, 75ºC Mem, and 82ºC Hotspot).

GPU runs DCS at 78% usage on average, depending if on high altitude (60% then) or near ground (rarely at 99%, like flying above tree tops of forests and zooming at same time).

60FPS with V-Sync ON, get no stuttering. I do run DCS with a mixture of Medium settings with High textures (see here) and a few shader tweaks, and don't use MSAA in-game, as with 4K+ resolutions you don't really miss that (whereas in 1080P and 1440P you really need it to combat jaggies, shimering and flicking).

IMHO, the RX5700XT is a far better GPU (for 2D, not VR) than most people gave it credit for, and may still serve to buy you time, untill better deals and products can appear.

Edited July 26, 2021 by LucShep

[cyberaxcess]

On 7/26/2021 at 3:13 AM, LucShep said:

If you can sell the RX5700XT then it can be good upgrading to RTX3070Ti, as you can partially compensate the financial hit.

Some people are not comfortable doing this and, at the moment, for these cases such upgrade will be at a huge cost - and why I decided to post in the first place.

Just don't kid yourself thinking it'll last you long before noticing its limitations too.  Plus, there's always something better tempting us in the horizon...

 

Well, you see that's the thing... that window is not going to last before the 5700XT's used value starts decreasing... but yes, selling off the old card is not everyone's cup of tea so to speak.

And yes, the 3070 ti has limitations, but it's limitations are going to last a whole lot longer than the current 5700XT!

 

Whether it is a suitable upgrade for a person, depends on the context and situation with supply and demand at the time.

 

I've tried SSAA before, but I gave your settings a try (you never know!).

On DCS 2.7, your exact settings gave me around the low to mid 50's fps for most situations low level (clouds on standard, which you don't have on 2.5.6). BUT the shimmering drove me mad. On 4k with your settings but change the SSA to MSAA x4 and it looks brilliant with hardly any shimmering at all... but the fps is in the low 30's for the same situations!!

 

Ironically, your undervolted settings are pretty similar to what I have set 

 

My settings are very similar, but 1440 and MSAA x4. I get around the mid 60's for fps in the same situations as above, and the simmering is mostly acceptable (although still very evident).

 

So yeah, if a 3070 ti will let me run at MSAA x4 with other options turned up higher, and still give me an extra 20+ fps, I'm liking that idea 

 

I would like to see a 3070's fps in DCS at 4k with MSAA x4 just out of curiosity, not expecting great things from it, but would be nice to know...

@Nuggetz If you are able to try it out at 4k with msaa x4 (2d) sometime, we would appreciate the info so we can compare 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by cyberaxcess