Worth getting back into the Harrier?

[Mr.Scar]

Yeah, i know. Another of those topics... So i will keep it short. 

 

Question as the title, but things worth mentioning from my side. 

 

1. I flew the Harrier around a good time ago, when it was filled with bugs. 

2. Was the first module ever i managed to do a2a refueling. 

3. Had a blast, coming from the A10C at that time. Have tried the hornet but it was... Boring.

4. Spent a lot of time on helos, and this is something i currently do. 

 

I shelved the Harrier one year ago because the bugs became too irritating. 

 

I have read through the patch notes and forum topics. So i kind of have an idea that a lot of stuff has been fixed and Thank you RAZBAM for that. But i wonder simply what the hands on experience right now is. Reason for asking is that i am on holiday and do not have Access to my pc. But i am considering what to fly with additional days off, when i am back from holiday. 

 

Last thing, i love mud moving. Second place of my interest Goes to the F16. 

 

Thanks for the feedback 

 

[Wisky]

i did fly the hornet, viper, mirage and a10. But the Harrier is my most favourite module in the game right now. i just love what it is able to do. from all the above i only consider the viper a for me very interesting module - for Air2Air only, i tried Air2Ground in it but coming from the Harrier it made me want to crash it into the next mountain.

 

once we get the Plus model there is no reason for me anymore to go to any other module, though.

 

the amount of love and work Razbam has been putting into the Harrier lately is just amazing and leaves me in awe

Edited July 11, 2021 by Wisky

[horstweihrauch]

55 minutes ago, Wisky said:

i did fly the hornet, viper, mirage and a10. But the Harrier is my most favourite module in the game right now. i just love what it is able to do. from all the above i only consider the viper a for me very interesting module - for Air2Air only, i tried Air2Ground in it but coming from the Harrier it made me want to crash it into the next mountain.

 

once we get the Plus model there is no reason for me anymore to go to any other module, though.

 

the amount of love and work Razbam has been putting into the Harrier lately is just amazing and leaves me in awe

 

You may now kiss the bride ehm harrier

[Fri13]

5 hours ago, Wisky said:

once we get the Plus model there is no reason for me anymore to go to any other module, though.

 

Amen.... The extra $ 79 for the AV-8B+ will be reserved to day when Razbam is delivering its promised + variant.

Flying with both, N/A and + variants basically renders other modules pretty hard spot when it comes to capabilities.

As even when the Harrier is not a Hornet or Viper in the energy fight, it will put many to difficult positions and it is the pilot that matters. So giving a BVR capability will make big difference, even when the radar size is little smaller than in Hornet and hence the range and detection is shorter and hence ECM capabilities as well somewhat better against Harrier, the AIM-120A/B capable (the AIM-120C integration coming in 2023 in reality) mission is something fancy. 

 

5 hours ago, Wisky said:

the amount of love and work Razbam has been putting into the Harrier lately is just amazing and leaves me in awe

 

If that would just be true. They are just playing around now with stuff that should have been done 3 years ago. There is a lot to be done and changed radically, but if they keep up the pace then we see in 2-3 years that it could be said so.... 

[Fri13]

9 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

I shelved the Harrier one year ago because the bugs became too irritating. 

 

What bugs were the ones that were too irritating?

 

9 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

I have read through the patch notes and forum topics. So i kind of have an idea that a lot of stuff has been fixed and Thank you RAZBAM for that.

 

From the bugs that You found back then to be too irritating You have not seen to be fixed and still existing?

 

9 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

But i wonder simply what the hands on experience right now is.

 

It has started to receive a proper limitations like engine performance was scaled dramatically to smaller for proper values.

It has received some of the proper limitations like the TPOD laser arming is limited now correctly.

Soon it should receive incapability to show TPOD simultaneously with ANY Maverick video.

 And that LOFT sub-mode for AUTO delivery is finally being implemented.

 

 

There are as well big fixes like the Sidearm seeker is visible on the HUD and moves properly.

The TPOD has proper compass rose angle from the point on ground.

 

But there are many incorrect things to be redone like DMT and INS.

Some of them are waiting ED to implement the new FLIR simulation. But it doesn't matter for incorrect behaviors like DMT doesn't have 420 degree roll limitation (one full roll + 60 degrees more), doesn't have a contrast tracking but magically has the instant ground stabilization. And INS mode is not restricted to HUD and for LOS with Altitude Radar ranging for backup purposes. The EHSI displays automatic switching when DMT gimbal is reached, the DMT/LST scan functions and whole DMT automatic LST/TV -> INS mode switching etc.

The gun is still way too accurate by its spread, it should be 80% of rounds hitting inside 5 mil radius, and now it is more like a 1-2 mil with 100%. 

 

The greatest part on the Harrier is the amazing 3D model and textures. It has many systems correctly done and the feeling and experience is unique. Maybe there is problems with the drag being too small as Harrier still doesn't like to stop and it doesn't take time to accelerate with heavy loadouts.

 

I would say that Harrier is 50-70% from completed status. So lots of work to be done, but it is getting there.

[Thanatos31]

21 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

Yeah, i know. Another of those topics... So i will keep it short. 

 

Question as the title, but things worth mentioning from my side. 

 

1. I flew the Harrier around a good time ago, when it was filled with bugs. 

2. Was the first module ever i managed to do a2a refueling. 

3. Had a blast, coming from the A10C at that time. Have tried the hornet but it was... Boring.

4. Spent a lot of time on helos, and this is something i currently do. 

 

I shelved the Harrier one year ago because the bugs became too irritating. 

 

I have read through the patch notes and forum topics. So i kind of have an idea that a lot of stuff has been fixed and Thank you RAZBAM for that. But i wonder simply what the hands on experience right now is. Reason for asking is that i am on holiday and do not have Access to my pc. But i am considering what to fly with additional days off, when i am back from holiday. 

 

Last thing, i love mud moving. Second place of my interest Goes to the F16. 

 

Thanks for the feedback 

 

 

The Harrier was my first module I really tried to learn after starting with the F18. Compared to the Harrier- the hornet felt bland; it isa jack of all trades, but never really "hooked" me. VSTOL, Flight model and latley the amount of fixes by Razbam have really made me only fly the harrier...F16 is currently the runner up - due to its AA capabilities and overall "feel". Id say - get back on the AV8B Track 

[kotor633]

You have to decide for yourself. Personally, I have completely lost my desire for the AV8B. This constant back and forth with Razbam ... But that also applies in general to all of those 'products' ... 

[Chipwich]

I tried it a bit when it was first released, primarily to see if I was up to the challenge of flying a VSTOL jet.  But got pulled away by other modules over the years, primarily the Hornet/SC and helos.  Since the Harrier is like if a Hornet and a SH-60 Seahawk had babies, it's what I fly mostly now.  And with the South Atlantic map coming up along with an asset pack, I've begun reading everything I can find about that conflict.  Mirages, Scooters, and Pucaras, oh my!  I want to be ready.

[Avalanche110]

I just got back into the AV-8B. Hadn’t flown it in 3+ years. 

The harrier has matured a lot since I last used it and I am really enjoying it.

very different to the Hornet and much more challenging. 

Very capable aircraft with a lot to get your head around.

The training missions are arguably the best in the sim. This is something often overlooked in modules. 

I would highly recommend this module  to anyone looking for something different.

[Mr.Scar]

Wow, this is a lot of good stuff. Thank you all. I will sit down in a few hours in front of my pc, and refer to, what you wrote. 

[Mr.Scar]

On 7/11/2021 at 5:15 PM, Wisky said:

once we get the Plus model there is no reason for me anymore to go to any other module, though.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 10:37 PM, Fri13 said:

Amen.... The extra $ 79 for the AV-8B+ will be reserved to day when Razbam is delivering its promised + variant.

Flying with both, N/A and + variants basically renders other modules pretty hard spot when it comes to capabilities.

 

Hold your horses there. What? We are getting the Plus variant? Well ill be damned... This is awesome news. 

[Fri13]

4 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

Hold your horses there. What? We are getting the Plus variant? Well ill be damned... This is awesome news. 

 

Razbam has only promised to make the + variant. They have as well said that they are going to charge for it (first it was talked to belong with N/A) and hence I assume full $79 module price (even when it is just a throttle getting spring loaded wheel and extra button, something that Razbam modeled first in N/A until they were told about error and they remodeled throttle to N/A version, and adding a radar page from F/A-18C and removing DMT) and there is no schedule whatsoever that when, so can be in 2023 or 2025 or 2030.

 

 

[Thanatos31]

12 hours ago, Avalanche110 said:

The training missions are arguably the best in the sim. This is something often overlooked in modules. 

I would highly recommend this module  to anyone looking for something different.

This right here. 
THey are so well though through and organized - its an awesome curriculum. 

I think @baltic_dragon is currently reworking them and updating them. 

[Mr.Scar]

On 7/11/2021 at 5:15 PM, Wisky said:

i did fly the hornet, viper, mirage and a10. But the Harrier is my most favourite module in the game right now. i just love what it is able to do. from all the above i only consider the viper a for me very interesting module - for Air2Air only, i tried Air2Ground in it but coming from the Harrier it made me want to crash it into the next mountain.

 

once we get the Plus model there is no reason for me anymore to go to any other module, though.

 

the amount of love and work Razbam has been putting into the Harrier lately is just amazing and leaves me in awe

 

I am in the same boat. Generally after flying the A-10C which fits me like a glove i have discovered my love for mud moving. But I wanted more, and thanks to the A-10C i have found out that Helos are my thing. Have tried the fast movers, F-18, F-14, JF-17, Viggen, Mirage, they are all nice and cool, but dont offer the things that I want. Meanwhile the Harrier is kind of a mix of a helicopter and jet, maybe not the biggest ordnace capacity, but a lot of flexiblity. So my cup of coffe. Thats why the Harrier got me hooked, but got shelved because of the bugs.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 10:55 PM, Fri13 said:

From the bugs that You found back then to be too irritating You have not seen to be fixed and still existing?

 

Uh, kill me, cant remember. That was a good time ago, maybe a year or two. The thing how it looked like was as follows: I have bought the Harrier without even reading about potential bugs (yeah, shame on me) i got hooked, started doing tranings, simple sp missions etc. but i think there was something wrong with the TPOD that made me wonder if I am doing something wrong, or it is a plane thing. So i started reading/searching forums about it and i stumbled upon a lot of posts how the Harrier is plagued with bugs. That was the main thing that made me resign from the Harrier for the time being, although i did it with a nasty taste in my mouth, because i really started to love that bird. I was looking at YT videos showing how future marine aviatiors were sitting in the mud with other grunts, so that a stronger bond is created between those two. This is something that made it stand out for me a lot, and something that is rather not practiced anywhere else that i know of.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 10:55 PM, Fri13 said:

t has started to receive a proper limitations like engine performance was scaled dramatically to smaller for proper values.

It has received some of the proper limitations like the TPOD laser arming is limited now correctly.

Soon it should receive incapability to show TPOD simultaneously with ANY Maverick video.

 And that LOFT sub-mode for AUTO delivery is finally being implemented.

 

 

There are as well big fixes like the Sidearm seeker is visible on the HUD and moves properly.

The TPOD has proper compass rose angle from the point on ground.

 

But there are many incorrect things to be redone like DMT and INS.

Some of them are waiting ED to implement the new FLIR simulation. But it doesn't matter for incorrect behaviors like DMT doesn't have 420 degree roll limitation (one full roll + 60 degrees more), doesn't have a contrast tracking but magically has the instant ground stabilization. And INS mode is not restricted to HUD and for LOS with Altitude Radar ranging for backup purposes. The EHSI displays automatic switching when DMT gimbal is reached, the DMT/LST scan functions and whole DMT automatic LST/TV -> INS mode switching etc.

The gun is still way too accurate by its spread, it should be 80% of rounds hitting inside 5 mil radius, and now it is more like a 1-2 mil with 100%. 

 

The greatest part on the Harrier is the amazing 3D model and textures. It has many systems correctly done and the feeling and experience is unique. Maybe there is problems with the drag being too small as Harrier still doesn't like to stop and it doesn't take time to accelerate with heavy loadouts.

 

I would say that Harrier is 50-70% from completed status. So lots of work to be done, but it is getting there.

 

This sounds much better than I remember it was, so its great news they are making progress! Thanks for the write up

 

3 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Razbam has only promised to make the + variant. They have as well said that they are going to charge for it (first it was talked to belong with N/A) and hence I assume full $79 module price (even when it is just a throttle getting spring loaded wheel and extra button, something that Razbam modeled first in N/A until they were told about error and they remodeled throttle to N/A version, and adding a radar page from F/A-18C and removing DMT) and there is no schedule whatsoever that when, so can be in 2023 or 2025 or 2030

 

Well, it will take time but honestly I think when the Plus drops it will be a very nice game changer. I might get roasted for saying it, but i personally thing that the Plus harrier will have much greater flexibility than the Hornet has. Option to land almost everywhere, boat ops, a2g, a2a, specifically designed for night ops, helo escorts, limited but still, sead capable, it will be very flexible and yet somehow more interesting than the Hornet. At least for me.

 

On 7/12/2021 at 10:33 AM, Thanatos31 said:

The Harrier was my first module I really tried to learn after starting with the F18. Compared to the Harrier- the hornet felt bland; it isa jack of all trades, but never really "hooked" me. VSTOL, Flight model and latley the amount of fixes by Razbam have really made me only fly the harrier...F16 is currently the runner up - due to its AA capabilities and overall "feel". Id say - get back on the AV8B Track 

 

I totally know what you talk about. I have tried the Hornet several times, but it simply does not have that "itch" for me that helos or dedicated ground pounders have. I honestly prefer the Viper over the Hornet and I am far from a good BVR/dogfighter... and you know what? I dont care, i love blowing up stuff on the ground and leave the A2A to the others. But the Viper gives me better vibes in a2a combat than the hornet does. Maybe because a lot of years ago my first flying was done in the F-15C.

 

15 hours ago, Avalanche110 said:

I just got back into the AV-8B. Hadn’t flown it in 3+ years. 

The harrier has matured a lot since I last used it and I am really enjoying it.

very different to the Hornet and much more challenging. 

Very capable aircraft with a lot to get your head around.

The training missions are arguably the best in the sim. This is something often overlooked in modules. 

I would highly recommend this module  to anyone looking for something different.

 

 

2 hours ago, Thanatos31 said:

This right here. 
THey are so well though through and organized - its an awesome curriculum. 

I think @baltic_dragon is currently reworking them and updating them. 

 

I totally agree, and I like different. Truth is, the Harrier for me is a bit of an underdog in DCS and I like being an underdog. And yes, i flew the training missions those 2 years ago, they are fantastic because they force me to use the knowladge from previous missions to apply them in new ones, so going from simple stuff to the more advanced ones! Great news that BD is working on updating them.

 

 

Thank you all guys for the feedback, maybe the Harrier is still not in a perfect condition but i think it is in a much better shape than it was a few years ago. I have also noticed that they added APKWS to the Harrier and this thing is a beast... I think i will jump into the Harrier training missions and give it a shot.

 

One last question, any recommended SP campaigns to hone the skills? I heard Sky Warrior is quite good and the Ottoman Courier prologue missions are also quite nice. Anything else worth mentioning to hone skills, once i go through the training missions?

 

Thanks a lot again!

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Fri13]

On 7/14/2021 at 4:43 PM, Mr.Scar said:

Well, it will take time but honestly I think when the Plus drops it will be a very nice game changer. I might get roasted for saying it, but i personally thing that the Plus harrier will have much greater flexibility than the Hornet has. Option to land almost everywhere, boat ops, a2g, a2a, specifically designed for night ops, helo escorts, limited but still, sead capable, it will be very flexible and yet somehow more interesting than the Hornet. At least for me.

 

In the AV-8B+ lots of changes will make it less capable for night operations than what N/A is. Primarily because the DMT is removed and so on the ARBS/LST is gone. You need to take the TPOD to get the capability, but it is not so smooth and seamless as it is with the DMT.

 

But having same radar as the F/A-18C Hornet with just little smaller antenna dish limiting the range, it gets more than it really loses. But this is why I would have liked to see the AV-8B N/A to stay in the early 2000 variant and then push later the AV-8B+ as 2015 one. 

[Mr.Scar]

On 7/15/2021 at 7:57 PM, Fri13 said:

 

In the AV-8B+ lots of changes will make it less capable for night operations than what N/A is. Primarily because the DMT is removed and so on the ARBS/LST is gone. You need to take the TPOD to get the capability, but it is not so smooth and seamless as it is with the DMT.

 

But having same radar as the F/A-18C Hornet with just little smaller antenna dish limiting the range, it gets more than it really loses. But this is why I would have liked to see the AV-8B N/A to stay in the early 2000 variant and then push later the AV-8B+ as 2015 one. 

 

Sorry for the late reply mate. Thanks for the update and I agree about the radar. The Harrier will gain more with the radar, even if it means loosing some stuff. A2A in general is not my cup of coffee, since i simply do not feel the urge for BVR/BFM. I have tried to like the Hornet because of the "can do it all" thing, but it simply does not click with me. Ironically, Hornet carrier ops is not my thing, but operating from the Tarawa in a Harrier works for me way better. Probably because it kind of reminds me of helo landings. Same goes to pure A2A that I am not fond of in the Bug, but i do think Aim-120C option for the AV-8 will provide a complete new dimension. 

 

Anyway, right now I hop between the Harrier and the Hog, since CAS is my thing. I leave A2A fights to those who thrive in it. One thing i wish for, Hog or Harrier, is that the ground units AI get some kind of overhaul or more complex behavior. I love blowing stuff up, but at some point it becomes only target practice. More natural ground unit behaviour would be desired, but we will see what happens. Once I finish re-learning the Harrier i think i will try out some SP campaigns, or I will try getting my hands on DCS Liberation. But that is a different topic for another time.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Kappa]

Don't forget A2G radar mode. A2A is only one part of this cake

 

[Fri13]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:46 AM, Mr.Scar said:

The Harrier will gain more with the radar, even if it means loosing some stuff. A2A in general is not my cup of coffee, since i simply do not feel the urge for BVR/BFM. I have tried to like the Hornet because of the "can do it all" thing, but it simply does not click with me. Ironically, Hornet carrier ops is not my thing, but operating from the Tarawa in a Harrier works for me way better. Probably because it kind of reminds me of helo landings. Same goes to pure A2A that I am not fond of in the Bug, but i do think Aim-120C option for the AV-8 will provide a complete new dimension. 

 

The + variant opens lot of things for those who enjoy from Harrier with TPOD as they don't anyways use DMT. So capability to use A/A load becomes suddenly real challenger for the Hornet, as Harrier still operates from the FOB if required.

 

On 7/19/2021 at 10:46 AM, Mr.Scar said:

Anyway, right now I hop between the Harrier and the Hog, since CAS is my thing. I leave A2A fights to those who thrive in it. One thing i wish for, Hog or Harrier, is that the ground units AI get some kind of overhaul or more complex behavior. I love blowing stuff up, but at some point it becomes only target practice. More natural ground unit behaviour would be desired, but we will see what happens. Once I finish re-learning the Harrier i think i will try out some SP campaigns, or I will try getting my hands on DCS Liberation. But that is a different topic for another time.

 

The ground units changes will be affecting every unit there is. Hopefully ED gets dozens of different AI's developed that are applied to different units and each behaves through sub-patterns based situation it is facing (enemy under fire, friendly under fire, unit itself under fire, under threat etc).

 

This will make Harrier even more fancy with the A-10C and helicopters etc that are main benefactors. Fighters at medium altitude will/should have less capabilities find ground units and engage them. So real mud movers job becomes really important with ground units itself to support.

27 minutes ago, Kappa said:

Don't forget A2G radar mode. A2A is only one part of this cake

 

It is same as in Hornet. Not really useful for anything else than detecting ships at sea, and as well harbor or large city and similar very distinct landmarks. You are almost as good with a EHSI with digital map. 

 

What hornet has now, it would be with Harrier+ as well.

[Mr.Scar]

39 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

The + variant opens lot of things for those who enjoy from Harrier with TPOD as they don't anyways use DMT. So capability to use A/A load becomes suddenly real challenger for the Hornet, as Harrier still operates from the FOB if required.

 

Oh yes. And having AIM-120C while doing helo escort can be a really nasty surprise for enemy fast movers. 

 

39 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

The ground units changes will be affecting every unit there is. Hopefully ED gets dozens of different AI's developed that are applied to different units and each behaves through sub-patterns based situation it is facing (enemy under fire, friendly under fire, unit itself under fire, under threat etc).

 

This will make Harrier even more fancy with the A-10C and helicopters etc that are main benefactors. Fighters at medium altitude will/should have less capabilities find ground units and engage them. So real mud movers job becomes really important with ground units itself to support.

 

I honestly am very eager to see this, because it will change the "gameplay" tremendously. What I mean by that is, there is nothing wrong with the current modules we fly. The problem is the environment we fly in. When the changes to the ground unit AI come, to make it even semi-realistic, suddenly all the available dcs modules will have their place in such an dynamic environment. It will simply create a plethora of factors that need to be accounted for when going on a mission. Now im not criticizing the Hornet or any other module, but in the current state of ground AI, the Hornet is simply put, the "best" option for many virtual pilots. But like you said and I am of the same opinion, once we get a better simulated environment, it will be a total game changer. 

 

That is also why I love flying the Harrier and it clicks with me. Im still in the middle of re-learning it, but it is simply so much more fun and hands on. The added fluff comes from the history of the aircraft and the way it is used in the real world. Same goes for the helicopters that in my opinion give me the most joy from flying. 

 

I hope RAZBAM will continue to update and improve the Harrier

Edited July 21, 2021 by Mr.Scar