Confused about the radar datalink and stuff

[Jyge]

I have been playing with F-14B every now and then. I now started with cage the bear campaign and got rather confused during the first mission. I already played the F-14 red flag campaign, but apparently it did not require that much knowledge as the cage the bear campaign. Firstly, I tuned in the datalink and I think that I get quite a few contacts displayed through the datalink without "seeing" myself them on the radar.

 

In that case of a datalink contact I am not sure if I can launch them. The module has developed quite a bit so not all of the tutorials are very accurate. Somewhere during the mission I wanted to launch a salvo of AIM-54s but I could not see any priority numbers on the contacts? Was this again due to the datalink nature of those contacts or did I have a wrong radar mode, at that time I was in TWS Auto...

 

Also I am not sure about the IFF. At times it works with the TWS (I think), when pressing the IFF and the radar is doing the sweep and at times it does not seem to work - well it seems that the TWS can see them but once I press the IFF, the contacts disappear and will not "blip" - I reckon it is different type of radarmode, as it shows the stuff in ranges instead of closures.

 

Is there a way to select a contact on TID and make the DDD lock on that contact, let's say in PD STT or so?

 

I am also missing all kinds of indications about the probability of a hit on TWS mode and going for the RIO sixshooter?

 

Well I have plenty of more questions but those were few that came into my mind after playing the mission, crashing on the carrier and debriefing myself on what just happened during the mission. It is way more harder than the red flag missions. Maybe I should just fly around and stay out of RIO's seat and not try to do two jobs at the same time.

[Naquaii]

In regards to the datalink it's not something that can be used for missile engagement, you need to find them using your radar. You can however use the datalink information as guidance for how to point your scan zone. TWS Manual is probably better to start in as in that mode you can manuall point the scan zone towards the targets. You can then switch into TWS Auto to keep the radar on the targets or just launch as the WCS will automatically transition into Auto anyway at launch.

 

The IFF works like you say, the DDD switch to azimuth vs range as IFF can't read rate like the pulse doppler modes. This can be confusing, you need to reference positions on the TID to make sense of it, not the contacts you previously saw on the DDD in doppler mode. What you can do however is hooking a track on the TID and then press IFF, that will center the DDD IFF readout on that target and show it and +/- 10NM only.

 

You can transition into P STT or PD STT from TWS by hooking a track on the TID and then pressing the respective buttons. This is not as sure of a lock-on method as doing it manually with the HCU on the DDD yourself though.

 

The only indications in regards to likeliness of hit/kill is the range markers on the TID, these are detailed here: http://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#tid-symbology under launch zone vectors.

[nighthawk2174]

4 hours ago, Naquaii said:

In regards to the datalink it's not something that can be used for missile engagement, you need to find them using your radar. You can however use the datalink information as guidance for how to point your scan zone. TWS Manual is probably better to start in as in that mode you can manuall point the scan zone towards the targets. You can then switch into TWS Auto to keep the radar on the targets or just launch as the WCS will automatically transition into Auto anyway at launch.

 

The IFF works like you say, the DDD switch to azimuth vs range as IFF can't read rate like the pulse doppler modes. This can be confusing, you need to reference positions on the TID to make sense of it, not the contacts you previously saw on the DDD in doppler mode. What you can do however is hooking a track on the TID and then press IFF, that will center the DDD IFF readout on that target and show it and +/- 10NM only.

 

You can transition into P STT or PD STT from TWS by hooking a track on the TID and then pressing the respective buttons. This is not as sure of a lock-on method as doing it manually with the HCU on the DDD yourself though.

 

The only indications in regards to likeliness of hit/kill is the range markers on the TID, these are detailed here: http://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#tid-symbology under launch zone vectors.

Fighter to Fighter datalink works correct?  Also is the not as sure lock on from TWS accurate?  I don't really see a reason it shouldn't be as good as on the DDD.

Edited July 12, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[Jyge]

So what about the priority numbers? Of course I can use the button to switch on and off the datapoint tracks on TID, but how do I perform my attack most effectively then? Switch back and forth, ensure that I see them, switch the datalink off and start shooting? Somehow that does not make sense?

 

Apparently the DL tracks are upsidedown symbols but shouldn't I still get a prioritization between the rightsideup symbols at least (well this question stands)? Yesterday, I hooked singular targets from the TID and blasted away and I even hit some, but they certainly did not have the priority numbers on them at that moment and I had contacts showing on DDD, I just can not be sure if it was them, as there were quite a few contacts on that mission. I'll need to pay attention to the symbols when I fly the mission again today.

 

BTW, shouldn't I get a P STT or PD STT lock also from a datapoint track by hooking it and pushing the respective button, the system knows where to point the antenna (unless the contact is in a filter)? Similarly I would expect TWS auto to point the antenna to the direction if I hook a DL track, so that I get my own radar contact?

 

Is it then more recommendable to use the TWS manual initially and only switch to auto after establishing contacts?

Edited July 12, 2021 by Jyge

[Naquaii]

The fighter to fighter datalink is the same, cannot be used for engagement.

 

The priority numbers will never be assigned to a datalink only target, if you get a prio number you have it on your own radar. You can also not hook them to lock them and the AWG-9 will not point the radar towards them either. The datalink contacts just aren't taken into consideration by the WCS, they're just additional information. And that's correct as far as we know.

 

TWS manual would be the preferred mode until you have the tracks you want, yes. Otherwise you can't point the scan zone.

 

The reason for the hooked target on TID to STT transition not being as good is because it's automated and the TWS track isn't as precise as a manual lock-on. When you hook a track and press an STT button you tell the WCS to focus the antenna att the assumed target position and then it will go there and try to find the track once and then give up. When you use the DDD manually you can fine-tune and make sure the track is locked on the DDD. Once the STT is established there's no difference.

[nighthawk2174]

27 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

The fighter to fighter datalink is the same, cannot be used for engagement.

 

The priority numbers will never be assigned to a datalink only target, if you get a prio number you have it on your own radar. You can also not hook them to lock them and the AWG-9 will not point the radar towards them either. The datalink contacts just aren't taken into consideration by the WCS, they're just additional information. And that's correct as far as we know.

 

TWS manual would be the preferred mode until you have the tracks you want, yes. Otherwise you can't point the scan zone.

 

The reason for the hooked target on TID to STT transition not being as good is because it's automated and the TWS track isn't as precise as a manual lock-on. When you hook a track and press an STT button you tell the WCS to focus the antenna att the assumed target position and then it will go there and try to find the track once and then give up. When you use the DDD manually you can fine-tune and make sure the track is locked on the DDD. Once the STT is established there's no difference.

Right but say at 40NMi and a beamwidth of 3deg that'a an area of 4.2 NMi in width.  And that's assuming it doesn't do some kind of raster or con scan; that's still a massive area I just don't see how it would be much harder considering TWS still updates relatively fast.  If anything it'd guarantee your looking in the right spot instead of having to get the DDD cursor on the exact perfect spot.

[Naquaii]

6 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

Right but say at 40NMi and a beamwidth of 3deg that'a an area of 4.2 NMi in width.  And that's assuming it doesn't do some kind of raster or con scan; that's still a massive area I just don't see how it would be much harder considering TWS still updates relatively fast.  If anything it'd guarantee your looking in the right spot instead of having to get the DDD cursor on the exact perfect spot.

 

Still not as good as a manual, hands-on, controlled super search. Both due to the resolution on TWS tracks and the fact that movements of own aircraft upsets the TWS, it's the same reason why maneuvering during a TWS launch isn't recommended.

 

That's not to say it doesn't work and shouldn't be used, but an experienced RIO is as quick or even quicker manually and has less chance of failure.

[nighthawk2174]

I'm confused why would maneuvering of your own aircraft upset the TWS tracks?

[Naquaii]

Because of the crude nature of the TWS in the AWG-9 combined with the INS in the F-14. They simply weren't good enough to allow for excessive maneuvering. The reference materials specifically advise against this.

[Harlikwin]

4 hours ago, Naquaii said:

Because of the crude nature of the TWS in the AWG-9 combined with the INS in the F-14. They simply weren't good enough to allow for excessive maneuvering. The reference materials specifically advise against this.

 

So whats the rule of thumb for gentle manouvering? Like I generally want to crank after the shot, and usually I can do that "gently" but are there some hard fast rules of don't exceed XYZ turn rate etc?

[Naquaii]

Just now, Harlikwin said:

 

So whats the rule of thumb for gentle manouvering? Like I generally want to crank after the shot, and usually I can do that "gently" but are there some hard fast rules of don't exceed XYZ turn rate etc?

 

Not really, it's never mentioned. That said, turning gently and cranking is probably fine. Doing barrel-rolls and going upside down, not really.

[draconus]

22 hours ago, Naquaii said:

That said, turning gently and cranking is probably fine.

Probably? We ask how is it implemented, if at all, in the module.

 

@Jyge I would advise you take things slowly and concentrate on the pilot role for starters. Of course in SP you have to know a bit on the radar to guide and help Jester understand what you want from him but going back seat is not needed.

Use mission orders (which may change during mission) and AWACS info to know where to fly, how high and what to expect and look for. Remember the ROE. Prepare to fight (fence in) and use DL info to put your radar on the contacts. Azimuth is obvious but elevation is trickier - use left side number for the expected altitude range (like "1" means 10'000ft +/- 5000ft) and TID placement for target range (dashed line on the radar's gimbal limits - every line and space between them is 20nm). Tell Jester to move antenna elevation at the said alt/range and you should find the bandits. Remember that it changes quickly in head on aspect if you're not co-alt with the target. The radar tracks will probably correlate to DL ones but can also stay a bit misaligned due to lags and INS drift. Treat DL as additional SA info and help to guide your radar.

Edited July 13, 2021 by draconus

[Naquaii]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

18 hours ago, Naquaii said:

That said, turning gently and cranking is probably fine.

Probably? We ask how is it implemented, if at all, in the module.

 

Well, I can't talk for what people think is normal maneuvering in air to air combat in DCS, it for sure isn't what air combat IRL would be.

 

In general any maneuvering should be fine as long as you don't make the AWG-9 miss any frames. In TWS Auto the scan zone updates every two seconds, just like the tracks but you have to keep in mind that it's all governed by the INS in the F-14, not the real world. Throwing the aircraft around upsets this and is the major reason for this being discouraged IRL. What can happen is one of three things really, firstly you can break the INS of course which will make no-one happy, but that's the extreme edge case here. Secondly you might, by mistake, make the AWG-9 miss frames by maneuvering in a way that puts the scan zone outside of the antenna limits and lastly you might maneuver in a way that make the WCS unable to keep up with the scan zone pointing. Imagine the WCS updating the scan zone while you're in a roll, the WCS will adjust the scan zone to fit a momentary snap shot of your position and attitude and you'd then directly invalidate it by continueing that roll making that frame in effect lost. And making the AWG-9 missing frames isn't good as it's not that good at correlating tracks and can't reacquire a track that has been lost previously.

 

In STT however you should be able to do quite wild stuff as the only thing you really have to keep in mind is the antenna limits.

 

All that said though my suggestion would be to experiment with it yourself. But my original suggestion stands, in TWS you can for sure crank but don't do any crazy barrel rolls or stuff like that. Or rather, don't be surprised if you do and your TWS doesn't keep up.

[QuiGon]

22 hours ago, Naquaii said:

All that said though my suggestion would be to experiment with it yourself.

 

I did that since release of the Tomcat and have a pretty good feeling by now on what kind of maneuvering is still ok and doesn't make me loose my TWS contact. I can't really name hard numbers, as it's more of a gut feeling build up by experience, but what really upsets the TWS mode is banking. Try not to exceed maybe ~30° of bank to avoid missing frames. Also keep maneuvering rather softly, so that the TWS can update without missing frames while you change course to crank.

Edited July 14, 2021 by QuiGon