Cold War 1947 - 1991 *** 2nd Limited Edition ***

[Alpenwolf]

@ Mi-24P pilots:

 

When the AAV-7's land on the island, they will take the two main roads to get to Tinian Intl airbase (see images of the main roads on the main post of this thread). Once the enemy vehicles are on the road, you should only use rockets and guns to destroy them. Make sure you align your helicopter with a main road, preferably while approaching the vehicles from the south, before you strike. A human GCI will be able to detect the vehicles occasionally, so make sure you stay on comms with him, if available.

 

 

[QuiGon]

29 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

you should only use rockets and guns to destroy them

 

Are ATGMs not allowed then?

[Alpenwolf]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Are ATGMs not allowed then?

 

Of course, ATGM's are allowed, how did you misunderstand the statement like that?!

I said "should", because when they're obscured by the trees like that, rocket and gun runs are the answer. Besides, you would be flying within 1-2 km from them over the main roads, so no time for ATGM's.

 

This was only a hint or a word of advice, as Mi-24P's failed terribly in the first two rounds.

[QuiGon]

35 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

Of course, ATGM's are allowed, how did you misunderstand the statement like that?!

I said "should", because when they're obscured by the trees like that, rocket and gun runs are the answer. Besides, you would be flying within 1-2 km from them over the main roads, so no time for ATGM's.

 

This was only a hint or a word of advice, as Mi-24P's failed terribly in the first two rounds.

 

Oh, ok then, because when flying multicrew the pilot can attack with guns and rockets while the gunner can employ ATGMs at the same time, which would make for some interesting attack runs

[Alpenwolf]

26 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

Oh, ok then, because when flying multicrew the pilot can attack with guns and rockets while the gunner can employ ATGMs at the same time, which would make for some interesting attack runs

 

Now, THAT would be the ultimate solution for the AAV-7's problem Red encountered in rounds 1 and 2

[QuiGon]

16 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

Now, THAT would be the ultimate solution for the AAV-7's problem Red encountered in rounds 1 and 2

 

Well, blue still struggled to capture Tinian island entirely in round 2 despite the AAV-7s succeess, so I'm kinda reluctant to jump in a Hind on red side on Saturday and instead would rather go blue again for balancing reasons. I'll see

[Zachrix]

The Reds send their regards.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Zachrix

[Alpenwolf]

Red clearly won this time!

 

All AAV-7's were destroyed. All AA's and AAA's at Saipan Island were destroyed. With that, the objectives were completed.

 

Obviously, it's tough for Blue to get the job done. I'm still of the opinion that it's the players and not the objective (don't hate on me now, just stating what I see). I did GCI for Blue for about an hour. One Harrier pilot was trying to figure out how to fire his Mavericks while having all the time in the world to do it, after Blue shot down all enemy fighters. Two F-14's were not on comms and one of them even ended up flying west of Guam Island! One F-18 pilot was firing his HARM's at Red ships west of Tinian Island -__-

 

Nevertheless, and because we'll always have casuals in a open event, I'll make some adjustments.

 

The mission will go offline now for 2-3 weeks. Operation Tiberias will go online instead. Date and time will be announced.

[=475FG= Dawger]

3 hours ago, Alpenwolf said:

Red clearly won this time!

 

All AAV-7's were destroyed. All AA's and AAA's at Saipan Island were destroyed. With that, the objectives were completed.

 

Obviously, it's tough for Blue to get the job done. I'm still of the opinion that it's the players and not the objective (don't hate on me now, just stating what I see). I did GCI for Blue for about an hour. One Harrier pilot was trying to figure out how to fire his Mavericks while having all the time in the world to do it, after Blue shot down all enemy fighters. Two F-14's were not on comms and one of them even ended up flying west of Guam Island! One F-18 pilot was firing his HARM's at Red ships west of Tinian Island -__-

 

Nevertheless, and because we'll always have casuals in a open event, I'll make some adjustments.

 

The mission will go offline now for 2-3 weeks. Operation Tiberias will go online instead. Date and time will be announced.

We killed everything that was radiating on Tinian but the ships still cover the island and the HARMS don’t “see” the IR guided stuff. 
 

Technically, it is a bug that HARM missiles do not destroy ship borne radar antennas. 
 

The balance is an issue with Red able to put up lots of A/A fighters while Blue is flying long distances and 2/3 of the force is dedicated to strike.

I like the mission the way it is but I don’t think Blue can “win” if Red can maintain a CAP. Hornets need Harpoons to kill the ships or Tinian will be covered by ship radar and SAM. 
 

The blue carriers stop after about 5 hours, which is a PITA. The mission needs a timer to cycle to the next one. It was disappointing to find the server stuck on AA late last night.

Edited August 15, 2021 by =475FG= Dawger

[CAPT_Kirkpatrick]

Some kills are not counted/attributed due to death after weapons release.

 

First Kill Blue: Tau kills j-11
First Kill Red: Sword kills harrier

 

Total kills A2A blue: 55 (not including AI kills)
1 F-18; 1 F-14
7 KA-50; 2 viggens, 3 Harrier, 1 F-14, 1 f-18
3 Hinds; 2 Harrier, 1 Gazelle
12 MIG-21; 3 Harriers, 9 f-14
8 MIG-29S; 1 Harrier, 7 F-14
11 J-11A; 1 Harrier, 5 F-14, 5 F-18
2 SU-25T; 1 Harrier, 1 F-14

 

AI Kills: 18
1 KA-50
4 MI-24
6 MIG-21
4 MIG-29S
3 SU-33

 

 

Total Kills A2G blue:
1 EWR; Harrier
5 HQ-7; 3 F-18
2 HAWK; 1 Harrier
1 MOSKVA; 1 Viggen
2 SA-13, 1 Harrier
1 SA-15, 1 Harrier
1 SA-6; F-18
1 SA-8; F-18
1 URAL; Harrier
4 Shilka, 1 Harrier

 

 

Total kills A2A Red: 48 (not including AI kills)
8 Viggen; 4 MIG-29, 1 J-11, 3 SU-33
16 Harriers; 2 MIG-21, 8 MIG-29S, 1 J-11, 5 SU-33
11 F-14; 6 MIG-29S, 2 J-11, 3 SU-33
12 F-18; 1 MIG-21, 3 MIG-29, 5 J-11, 3 SU-33

 

AI KILLS: 11
7 Viggen; 5 Moskva, 2 SA-13
1 Harrier, SA-13
3 F-14; 2 SA-6, 1 SA-13

 

 

Total Kills A2G Red: 36
23 AAV-7; 22 MI-24, 1 MIG-21
3 Avenger; 1 MI-24
4 Vulcan; 2 MI-24, 1 KA-50, 1 MIG-21
1 M818; KA-50
5 HAWK; 2 SU-25T, 3 KA-50

 

 

Weapons, 947 weapons used, 182 occurrences of cannon fire vs 765 missiles

18 Vikhrs launched, 9 kills; 50% 
13 TOR's fired, 4 hits, 30.7%
9 Mavs fired; 9 hits, one mig-29 included, 100%
29 HARMS fired, 17 hits, 58.6%
57 AIM-54C launched; 17 Hits, 29.8%
51 AIM-7M launched; 11 Hits, 21.6%
38 AIM-9m; 16 Hits, 42.1%
9 AT-6 Fired; 5 Hits, 55.6%
2 FAB 250; No hits, 0%
5 FAB-500; 4 Hits, 80%
91 Stingers; 29 hits, 31.9%
16 HAWKS; No hits, 0%
14 HQ-7; 3 hits, 21.4%
1 HYDRA salvo;  7 hits, 100%
1 Harrier gun run, 2 hits, 100%
4 Mistral, 1 hit, 25%
1 MK-82; 2 hits on friendlies, -100%?
51 R-27R; 13 Hits, 25.4%
57 R-27ER; 10 hits, 17.5%
30 R-27T; 6 Hits, 20%
11 R-60; 3 Hits, 27.3%
45 R-73; 19 Hits, 42.2%
2 RB-74; 2 hits, 100%
16 R-04E; 9 hits, 56.3%
4 S-13; 3 Hits, 25%
10 S-5; 18 Hits, 100%
1 S-8OFP2 Salvo; 1 Hit, 100%
15 SA3M9M; 2 hits, 13.3%
118 SA-5B55; 9 Hits, 7.6%
12 SA9M33; 2 hits, 16.7%
27 SA9M333; 8 hits, 29.6%
3 SM-2; 1 hit, 33.3%
4 S-25MP; 4 Hits, 100%

Just now, =475FG= Dawger said:

We killed everything that was radiating on Tinian but the ships still cover the island and the HARMS don’t “see” the IR guided stuff. 
 

The balance is an issue with Red able to put up lots of A/A fighters while Blue is flying long distances and 2/3 of the force is dedicated to strike.

I like the mission the way it is but I don’t think Blue can “win” if Red can maintain a CAP. Hornets need Harpoons to kill the ships or Tinian will be covered by ship radar and SAM. 
 

The blue carriers stop after about 5 hours, which is a PITA. The mission needs a timer to cycle to the next one. It was disappointing to find the server stuck on AA late last night.

you technically didn't; You dealt 90% damage to the last SA-6 radar, causing it to shut down. However it was not killed and should have been spotted by the AV-8's striking the trucks in the same group

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 minutes ago, CAPT_Kirkpatrick said:

Some kills are not counted/attributed due to death after weapons release.

 

First Kill Blue: Tau kills j-11
First Kill Red: Sword kills harrier

 

Total kills A2A blue: 55 (not including AI kills)
1 F-18; 1 F-14
7 KA-50; 2 viggens, 3 Harrier, 1 F-14, 1 f-18
3 Hinds; 2 Harrier, 1 Gazelle
12 MIG-21; 3 Harriers, 9 f-14
8 MIG-29S; 1 Harrier, 7 F-14
11 J-11A; 1 Harrier, 5 F-14, 5 F-18
2 SU-25T; 1 Harrier, 1 F-14

 

AI Kills: 18
1 KA-50
4 MI-24
6 MIG-21
4 MIG-29S
3 SU-33

 

 

Total Kills A2G blue:
1 EWR; Harrier
5 HQ-7; 3 F-18
2 HAWK; 1 Harrier
1 MOSKVA; 1 Viggen
2 SA-13, 1 Harrier
1 SA-15, 1 Harrier
1 SA-6; F-18
1 SA-8; F-18
1 URAL; Harrier
4 Shilka, 1 Harrier

 

 

Total kills A2A Red: 48 (not including AI kills)
8 Viggen; 4 MIG-29, 1 J-11, 3 SU-33
16 Harriers; 2 MIG-21, 8 MIG-29S, 1 J-11, 5 SU-33
11 F-14; 6 MIG-29S, 2 J-11, 3 SU-33
12 F-18; 1 MIG-21, 3 MIG-29, 5 J-11, 3 SU-33

 

AI KILLS: 11
7 Viggen; 5 Moskva, 2 SA-13
1 Harrier, SA-13
3 F-14; 2 SA-6, 1 SA-13

 

 

Total Kills A2G Red: 36
23 AAV-7; 22 MI-24, 1 MIG-21
3 Avenger; 1 MI-24
4 Vulcan; 2 MI-24, 1 KA-50, 1 MIG-21
1 M818; KA-50
5 HAWK; 2 SU-25T, 3 KA-50

 

 

Weapons, 947 weapons used, 182 occurrences of cannon fire vs 765 missiles

18 Vikhrs launched, 9 kills; 50% 
13 TOR's fired, 4 hits, 30.7%
9 Mavs fired; 9 hits, one mig-29 included, 100%
29 HARMS fired, 17 hits, 58.6%
57 AIM-54C launched; 17 Hits, 29.8%
51 AIM-7M launched; 11 Hits, 21.6%
38 AIM-9m; 16 Hits, 42.1%
9 AT-6 Fired; 5 Hits, 55.6%
2 FAB 250; No hits, 0%
5 FAB-500; 4 Hits, 80%
91 Stingers; 29 hits, 31.9%
16 HAWKS; No hits, 0%
14 HQ-7; 3 hits, 21.4%
1 HYDRA salvo;  7 hits, 100%
1 Harrier gun run, 2 hits, 100%
4 Mistral, 1 hit, 25%
1 MK-82; 2 hits on friendlies, -100%?
51 R-27R; 13 Hits, 25.4%
57 R-27ER; 10 hits, 17.5%
30 R-27T; 6 Hits, 20%
11 R-60; 3 Hits, 27.3%
45 R-73; 19 Hits, 42.2%
2 RB-74; 2 hits, 100%
16 R-04E; 9 hits, 56.3%
4 S-13; 3 Hits, 25%
10 S-5; 18 Hits, 100%
1 S-8OFP2 Salvo; 1 Hit, 100%
15 SA3M9M; 2 hits, 13.3%
118 SA-5B55; 9 Hits, 7.6%
12 SA9M33; 2 hits, 16.7%
27 SA9M333; 8 hits, 29.6%
3 SM-2; 1 hit, 33.3%
4 S-25MP; 4 Hits, 100%

you technically didn't; You dealt 90% damage to the last SA-6 radar, causing it to shut down. However it was not killed and should have been spotted by the AV-8's striking the trucks in the same group

5 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

We killed everything that was radiating 

 

[QuiGon]

The event yesterday wasn't really going as planned for me. As all my buddies weren't available yesterday I was planning on doing some focused work on the mission objectives, so I joined a few minutes after start and as all the Harriers and Hornets were occupied I took a Viggen to start working on sinking that red fleet. I manged to do one flight and sink one ship and a Ka-50 on the way back, but then real life intervened and I had to pause for almost an hour. When I came back I saw a free Hornet slot and as the air defence on Tinnian was still not neutralized I went ahead to do some SEAD work. I did one SEAD run, taking out one or two radars, but then a Tomcat RIO trainee of mine came over, so I switched to the Tomcat. I'm not used to the front seat of the Tomcat and with a very inexperienced RIO we weren't overly effective, but we did a couple of flights, shot some reds down, but got shot down as well.

So in the end I wasn't working very effectively on the objective, unlike I originally planned to do. I hope I can do that next time, as I do belive that most players are not very efficient at actually completing objectives and unfortunately I was one of them this time

 

4 hours ago, Alpenwolf said:

Obviously, it's tough for Blue to get the job done. I'm still of the opinion that it's the players and not the objective (don't hate on me now, just stating what I see).

 

I absolutely agree with you! As I said above, there is a lot of room for improvement in regards to completing the objectives on blue side.

 

25 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The balance is an issue with Red able to put up lots of A/A fighters while Blue is flying long distances and 2/3 of the force is dedicated to strike.

 

The amount of red A/A fighters compared to blue is the only thing, that I think is worthy of reconsidering in regards to balance, but then blue is already able to achieve at least temporary air superiority if they coordinate well, so I'm not sure if red fighters should be more restricted or not.

[CAPT_Kirkpatrick]

28 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

The amount of red A/A fighters compared to blue is the only thing, that I think is worthy of reconsidering in regards to balance, but then blue is already able to achieve at least temporary air superiority if they coordinate well, so I'm not sure if red fighters should be more restricted or not.

I agree the balance of fighters was tipped heavily to the red side, however where were situations where pilots of the 14's such as the Tau would rock up, destroy or cripple 4 or 5 fighters over the island and provide a window of clear skies. The only fault to blue on this mission was some pretty poor coordination; The harriers that should have been attacking the island were doing CAP against the Helo's - Sure its needed but completing the objective might have been a better move, especially if you could then spawn the MC-2000's and -15's from Saipan which could do a much better job. Some of the -18's went to do SEAD against the 2nd or third island which was an odd choice when the first island was still up.

The viggens were by far the most annoying for 2 reasons, the fact that they could deal major damage to our shipping if they coordinated correctly, flying as a 2 or three ship rather than 3 singles, forcing us to move fighters to the fleet rather than the island. But also because there were reports some would try to outrun the fighters and then simply DC when they realised they couldn't escape.

 

Overall, Blue managed to complete 95% of the first island inside about 1 and a half hours, its just that no one went to look for that last damaged site to finish it off and thus the objectives never progressed.

[Apok]

Would be great if needed percentage is not 100% but lets say 95%. Kinda silly situations when one side loses cuz single unit is hidding in bushes and wouldnt change outcome of fight in rl. Its wining on tehicality.

Regarding AA war and outnumbering by red. Red can only do AA. Not counting two frogies. No bombs or S24. There were s13 for j11. But nobody noticed except me taking them on single run.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Apok

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

The event yesterday wasn't really going as planned for me. As all my buddies weren't available yesterday I was planning on doing some focused work on the mission objectives, so I joined a few minutes after start and as all the Harriers and Hornets were occupied I took a Viggen to start working on sinking that red fleet. I manged to do one flight and sink one ship and a Ka-50 on the way back, but then real life intervened and I had to pause for almost an hour. When I came back I saw a free Hornet slot and as the air defence on Tinnian was still not neutralized I went ahead to do some SEAD work. I did one SEAD run, taking out one or two radars, but then a Tomcat RIO trainee of mine came over, so I switched to the Tomcat. I'm not used to the front seat of the Tomcat and with a very inexperienced RIO we weren't overly effective, but we did a couple of flights, shot some reds down, but got shot down as well.

So in the end I wasn't working very effectively on the objective, unlike I originally planned to do. I hope I can do that next time, as I do belive that most players are not very efficient at actually completing objectives and unfortunately I was one of them this time

 

 

I absolutely agree with you! As I said above, there is a lot of room for improvement in regards to completing the objectives on blue side.

 

 

The amount of red A/A fighters compared to blue is the only thing, that I think is worthy of reconsidering in regards to balance, but then blue is already able to achieve at least temporary air superiority if they coordinate well, so I'm not sure if red fighters should be more restricted or not.

I don't think numbers is necessarily the issue. Its more a matter of Red having a relatively close land base versus Blue having to cycle from the carrier.

 

However, if Blue were properly coordinated, it would be a non-issue. Blue flying in willy nilly with no coordination of CAP, SEAD and Strike is a loser in this scenario. 

 

 

I would suggest Blue Helos and Harriers not be available for the first couple hours or until Tinian air defenses are down, add two more Tomcats and Hornets at the start and the invasion fleet shouldn't leave Saipan before the Harriers and Helos can support them.

[Alpenwolf]

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I keep saying: It's only 5 bloody units 4 x F/A-18C's need to take out at Tinian to enable 4 x F-15C's and 2 x M-2000C's operating from Saipan Intl airbase. That's 6 formidable fighters who will make it hard on Red to regain or maybe even gain air superiority. Yes, Red maybe has more fighters in the beginning, but not to the extent it's impossible for Blue to take out 5 units.

 

Red has only Mi-24P's that spawn at Tinian. MiG-21 slots are reserve slots. That means MiG-21's can be transferred to Tinian. Besides, Tinian airbase is very low on AA missiles, so after 60-90 minutes they're surely out of missiles, except maybe for R-60M's and R3R's. That being said, it really isn't as if Red is spawning there all the time. So again, destroy the 5 units to enable 6 more fighters.

 

All ground units are AI controlled. That means no units are hiding in the trees or the like. All units are in the open, otherwise they wouldn't be able to fire at enemy aircraft, so that's not the problem either.

 

In round 1, at some point Blue managed to enable the Eagles and Mirages (I believe after 1,5 - 2 hours). That quickly became a nightmare for Red, who eventually lost all advanced fighters later on and were left with MiG-21's mainly.

 

I did GCI yesterday for Blue for about an hour. Some players were still struggling with the systems onboard trying to figure out how to fire their missiles. On the other hand, The_Tau flying his Tomcat took out 2 x MiG-29A's, 1 x J-11A and 2 x MiG-21's in one sortie. I believe he even took out a helicopter with guns before RTB. The point is, it always comes down to who's flying what and how good they are at it. It's an open event, so surely mishaps are guaranteed. Therefore, I'll have to make some adjustments and announce the changes soon.

[rossmum]

When I called it a day, Tau was sitting on 14 kills and not a single loss. I don't think blue's problems had anything to do with lack of air superiority, more with not coordinating strikes to arrive at the same time they had fighter cover.

[Alpenwolf]

Mission's Upgrade:

 

- Added 2 x F-14A slots (6 aircraft) for Blue.

- The F-14A's spawn at the same aircraft carrier of the F-14B's. The same waypoints and the same objectives as F-14B's.

- The extra slots are to help the first Blue wave of SEAD and CAS in hopes for Blue to finally get the job done at Tinain Island.

- Aircraft carriers' waypoints optimised.

- The mission ends after 8 hours. That gives Blue 8 hours to finish the objective.

[sLYFa]

Could the extra two Tomcats be moved to the other carrier? There are issues with F-14 carrierspawns owed to their size so 6 of them on one boat might cause issues. 

[Alpenwolf]

25 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

Could the extra two Tomcats be moved to the other carrier? There are issues with F-14 carrierspawns owed to their size so 6 of them on one boat might cause issues. 

 

Is that an issue really?! I know some who put even more F-14's on one carrier. That's weird.

[sLYFa]

That MP carrierspawn logic is beyond me. At one point I remember you could not spawn in a Tomcat if there were 1-2 other aircraft on the deck. They have fixed that with the last patch AFAIK but you can still end up hitting the guy next to you when spawning. I'm sure you can spawn 6 Tomcats at once but the more you spawn the more likely it becomes that something goes wrong (collision, delayed/no spawn). On a less important note, different versions of Tomcats never operated from the same carrier at the same time IRL.

[Alpenwolf]

12 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

That MP carrierspawn logic is beyond me. At one point I remember you could not spawn in a Tomcat if there were 1-2 other aircraft on the deck. They have fixed that with the last patch AFAIK but you can still end up hitting the guy next to you when spawning. I'm sure you can spawn 6 Tomcats at once but the more you spawn the more likely it becomes that something goes wrong (collision, delayed/no spawn). On a less important note, different versions of Tomcats never operated from the same carrier at the same time IRL.

 

I'm aware of the real life issue about it, let's just leave that out of it, please. It's a fictive scenario as I've stated on the main post.

 

Let's just keep then the way it is. If it becomes troublesome, I'll change that quickly and reload the mission. The date will be announced soon.

[sLYFa]

Fair enough, looking forward to the next round! 

[The_Tau]

Triple Ace in a Day

[Alpenwolf]

4 hours ago, The_Tau said:

Triple Ace in a Day

 

The first engagements show that Blue did have air superiortiy for a while. Enough time for F/A-18C's to take out 5 units to enable 4 x F-15C's and 2 x M-2000C's if you ask me. AV-8B's could've done some damage as well while the CAP lasted. That's why I'm always reluctant when it comes to adding more units or removing some. No hard feelings, but it is quite often the player's or the players' fault, rather than the mission's design. If only the 104th guys had some time to fly just one round like they did in operation Tiberias to demostrate some high level of coordinated teamwork. On the other hand, they're part of an old squadron with pure dedication, so it's easier to do than it is for random solo players meeting occasionally online.