Kneeboard next/previous bindings don't work (again)

[TAW_Impalor]

My CUSTOM bindings for Kneeboard Next and Previous Page SOMETIMES fail to work. When I look at control options, I see duplicate lines in orange. Restarting DCS may or may not fix that. Deleting the Keyboard folder and assigning same custom bindings again did not help. Only happens with Mirage! 

 

Sorry for edit, the original detailed text describing the problem was lost upon posting.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by impalor

[Rudel_chw]

The problem is that the Mirage has had several redesigns of its control bindings during the last few years, so your custom bindings are conflicting with the modules changed defaults. My Mirage looks like this:

 

 

The easiest way to fix this, is to delete your custom bindings and re-create them anew. For this, go to /saved games/DCS/Config/Input/ and delete the M-2000C folder (you can also rename it, say to M-2000C.bak, just to be safe). Then start DCS and bind the controls as you like.

[TAW_Impalor]

On 8/1/2021 at 11:13 PM, Rudel_chw said:

The easiest way to fix this, is to delete your custom bindings and re-create them anew. For this, go to /saved games/DCS/Config/Input/ and delete the M-2000C folder (you can also rename it, say to M-2000C.bak, just to be safe). Then start DCS and bind the controls as you like.

 

Hello. Well, I went through that trouble: deleted the folder and assigned all the bindings again (looking at Kneeboard.html that I saved beforehand). It appeared working fine after the first restart.

 

But once I went online in VR the kneeboard stopped working again and orange duplicate lines appeared as before (I did not take a screenshot, but it was exactly like the first post, just in VR). Restarted again in flat screen to do a screenshot, all looks fine:

 

Tried in VR. All fine. Went back online, all fine! It was like that before I tried to remap everything - M2000 kneeboard worked sometimes but failed me suddenly when most needed. My other squad mates also experience this and revert to using mouse. 

 

I don't know how to reproduce it right now, but there is definitely a bug and RAZBAM should look into it. For me this is only happening with Mirage and only within Kneeboard section. I attached my Keyboard.html for devs to analyze.

Keyboard.html

[Rudel_chw]

33 minutes ago, impalor said:

... But once I went online in VR the kneeboard stopped working again and orange duplicate lines appeared as before ..

 

I see that you are using your own kneeboard bindings, instead of [  ]  and RShift+K .... make sure that your bindings don't conflict with the ones of the UI Layer section:

 

 

The UI Layer has several bindings that are used only in VR, make sure that there are no duplicates with bindings of the M-2000C section. 

[TAW_Impalor]

@Rudel_chwYes, I do have custom bindings for all my modules. And no, they do not conflict. In fact, there are no default bindings with LWin. All my modules work stable except Mirage (((

[Galinette]

Try moving them from saved games (this will reset binds so keep them) and check if it persists. It looks more like a messed up saved games folder bind file than a module bug.

[TAW_Impalor]

On 8/4/2021 at 6:35 PM, Kercheiz said:

Try moving them from saved games (this will reset binds so keep them) and check if it persists. It looks more like a messed up saved games folder bind file than a module bug.

I don't want the default binds! I already tried deleting the folder and assigning anew.

[Rudel_chw]

On 8/4/2021 at 6:43 AM, impalor said:

@Rudel_chwYes, I do have custom bindings for all my modules. And no, they do not conflict. In fact, there are no default bindings with LWin. All my modules work stable except Mirage (((

 

I doubt that this is a Module bug, since on my DCS with Oculus Rift, the Mirage kneeboard does work:

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Eduardo

[TAW_Impalor]

You all are showing how it works with DEFAULT bindings. This is not what I am after.

[Rudel_chw]

14 minutes ago, impalor said:

... This is not what I am after.

 

OK, sorry, I misunderstood the title you gave to the Thread. Will not bother you further. 

[TAW_Impalor]

36 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

OK, sorry, I misunderstood the title you gave to the Thread. Will not bother you further. 

Yeah, I typed a long text along with the screenshot, but then I clicked 'post' all text was lost and only the screenshot posted! I noticed that too late...

[Galinette]

Are you using custom lua for binds?

 

Also look at this:

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/200506-duplicated-lines-in-optionscontrols/

[TAW_Impalor]

17 hours ago, Kercheiz said:

Are you using custom lua for binds?

 

Also look at this:

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/200506-duplicated-lines-in-optionscontrols/

Thanks for the link, it does describe the long-standing bug I encountered. No, I don't edit lua myself, but DCS creates .diff.lua when I assign custom bindings.

[LeCuvier]

@impalor:

1. You have caused some of the confusion by saying that you use custom bindings. That led people including myself to believe that you had modified the "default.lua". You are not using custom bindings. You are using stock bindings, and you have bound them to non-default key combinations.

 

2. You have not indicated which version you are using. I see orange duplicated lines too, but a significantly different set. I'm using Open beta latest update. From what I see on your initial screen copy I suspect that you might be using stable release. I loaded stable, and that looks more similar to your picture. But not the same.

 

3. Your initial screen copy shows 3 red dots with "!" in them. These indicate unmistakably that you have binding conflicts. From my experience, these conflicts are with line in "UI Layer". 
You need to find and resolve these conflicts or you will get nowhere. UI Layer bindings override bindings anywhere else. In Controls/Options, select "UI Layer" instead of M-2000 to check!

 

@Rudel_chw

I have made sure I have current files for the Mirage and tried the Options/Controls, and YES I see the duplicated orange lines with all the "Kneeboard Jump To Shortcut..." commands.
I'm amazed they don't show duplicated on your screen.
I have never bound these so it's nothing to do with old bindings. So I went to the source of the issue. The kneeboard bindings are all defined in the files "common_joystick_binding.lua" and "common_keyboard_binding.lua" in the folder "...\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts". And when I open and compare these two files with Notepad++ I see immediately what causes the duplicated orange lines:

The lines in "common_joystick_binding.lua" look like this,

{down = 3006,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,  value_down = 0, name = _('Kneeboard Jump To Shortcut  1'),  category = _('Kneeboard')},

and the ones in "common_keyboard_binding.lua" look like this:

{down = iCommandPlaneKneeboardJumpBookmark, value_down = 0,  name = _('Kneeboard Jump To Shortcut  1'),  category = _('Kneeboard')},

I've taken the padding out to make them more readable.

The two sets of lines have identical names but different (albeit probably equivalent) code, and that causes them to be displayed in separate lines and in orange. I show what it looks like in the attachment. I'm puzzled why you don't see this.

Edited August 9, 2021 by LeCuvier

[Rudel_chw]

8 minutes ago, LeCuvier said:

... I'm puzzled why you don't see this.

 

Hi, 

 

I did have a few orange bindings as well on the Mirage, so I deleted my /saved games/DCS/Config/Input/M-200C/ folder (as I'm not currently using the Mirage and thus had no problem with rebinding some when in the future I return to the module) ... after that deletion, my Mirage bindings show up clean, no orange conflict line at all. 

 

Eduardo

[TAW_Impalor]

@LeCuvier
 

1. Sorry for the confusion. I was meant to say my assignments were not the default ones. I only learned about the 'bindings' while reading these replies, and this is all confusing to me.

2. OB latest as well.

3. The red conflict symbols only appear when DCS "reverts" the Kneeboard bindings back to default ones. This happens randomly - only in Mirage and only in Kneeboard section - with no action on my part. I used the quotation marks because such reversal is not functional: I cannot use [ and ] to flip pages. My own assignments do not work either when this happens.

 

I just launched DCS and see the same exact screen as in my first post. I don't have "[", "]" and "RCtrl-K" assigned to anything else in M-2000C, General or UI Layer. When I press either of those combinations while on Options-Controls screen nothing happens. I don't jump to corresponding lines even when on the page which shows these shortcuts. Hovering mouse over red circles shows the binding itself (RCtrl-K etc) with no information on the conflict.

 

I do NOT see the exact line you mentioned in "common_joystick_binding.lua". I attached my files from "...\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts". I removed all mods and repaired the game to be sure.

 

Now, I just closed DCS and launched it again. The yellow lines disappeared and the Kneeboard section shows my correct assignments. This randomness is driving me nuts!

 

 

 

common_joystick_binding.lua common_keyboard_binding.lua

[LeCuvier]

@impalor

1. your files seem ok.

 

2. The red dots don't tell you where the conflict is, only that there is one. Did you look into UI Layer?

 

3. I'm getting desperate, and since I cannot look into your PC my possibilities are extremely limited. I would try this:

Since the issue happens when the 3 default assignments come back, I would get rid of the defaults. This can be done by removing the "combos..." bit from the code.

Here are the 3 original related lines from "common_keyboard_binding.lua":

{combos = {{key = ']'}},                            down = 3001,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,                        value_down = 1.0,                        name = _('Kneeboard Next Page'),                    category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = '['}},                            down = 3002,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,                        value_down = 1.0,                        name = _('Kneeboard Previous Page'),                category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RCtrl'}}},        down = 3003,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,                        value_down = 1.0,                        name = _('Kneeboard current position mark point'),    category = _('Kneeboard')},

After removing the "combos" part they look like this:

{down = 3001,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,                        value_down = 1.0,                        name = _('Kneeboard Next Page'),                    category = _('Kneeboard')},
{down = 3002,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,                        value_down = 1.0,                        name = _('Kneeboard Previous Page'),                category = _('Kneeboard')},
{down = 3003,    cockpit_device_id = kneeboard_id,                        value_down = 1.0,                        name = _('Kneeboard current position mark point'),    category = _('Kneeboard')},

This simple surgery removes the defaults so the game cannot revert to them. Do you want to try? If you don't feel confident with lua editing I can edit the file for you. I don't know what else could be done to fix it. The problem doesn't occur here, but I don't have VR so it's not the same environment.

[TAW_Impalor]

@LeCuvierThanks. I can try your suggestion as an OvGME mod. Better still, I will change my TARGET profile and all modules to default [ ] keys for kneeboard navigation. This should fix the bug for good.

[LeCuvier]

@impalor Yes, that might be the best (because simplest) solution.

 

[TAW_Impalor]

@LeCuvierWell, sadly, the problem is not limited to M-2000C with non-default kneeboard assignments! Once I started going through all my modules, I now see these red marks in many of them! (((((  And it is the same in VR and non-VR modes...

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by impalor

[Galinette]

There is something messy in DCS with modifiers and combos. This should be reported (again) to DCS

[LeCuvier]

I do not see any of this. The duplicated lines of the "Kneenoard jump" commands I reported earlier were due to an old .lua file I kept using because it contained modifications. Once I updated the file, the duplications disappeared.
And I do not see the red dots, not on the SU-33 nor on any other aircraft.

 

Edit:

Oops, I shouldn't have said that! The only one module I had not checked (because I don't fly it), the AV-8BNA has exactly these 3 red dots. Now I car research it on my own rig, which is good!

Edited August 10, 2021 by LeCuvier

[Galinette]

One of the possible causes is that DCS allows per context modifiers. Which means a key can be a modifier for a module and not for general or the opposite. 
Then this creates complex bind conflict issues , for instance RAlt+E mai conflict with E in another place where RAlt isn’t a modifier.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Kercheiz

[LeCuvier]

@impalor As I just said, I could reproduce the situation you showed for the SU-33, except I had it for the AV-8BNA.

And I have possibly found the culprit.

The Kneeboard commands for some of the aircrafts are all defined in the file "...\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts\common_keyboard_binding.lua".

I found that there is a duplicate definition in the file "...\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts\Common\keyboard\default.lua".

The original file "...\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts\Common\keyboard\default.lua" contains these lines of code:

return {

keyCommands = {
--- Kneeboard
{combos = {{key = ']'}}                           ,             down = 3001, cockpit_device_id  = 100, value_down = 1.0, name = _('Kneeboard Next Page')  , category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = '['}}                           ,             down = 3002, cockpit_device_id  = 100, value_down = 1.0, name = _('Kneeboard Previous Page'), category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RShift'}}},             down = iCommandPlaneShowKneeboard,    name = _('Kneeboard ON/OFF'), category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RAlt'}}}  ,             down = iCommandPlaneShowKneeboard, up = iCommandPlaneShowKneeboard ,value_down = 1.0,value_up = -1.0, name = _('Kneeboard glance view')  , category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RCtrl'}}} ,             down = 3003    , cockpit_device_id  = 100,value_down = 1.0, name = _('Kneeboard current position mark point')  , category = _('Kneeboard')},
},
}

Three of these lines relate to the commands with the red dots, and they duplicate lines in the file "...\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts\common_keyboard_binding.lua". Duplication of code is usually not a good idea, so I commented the 3 lines out by inserting "--" at their beginning (using Notepad++). The file now looks like this:
 

return {

keyCommands = {
--- Kneeboard
--{combos = {{key = ']'}}                           ,             down = 3001, cockpit_device_id  = 100, value_down = 1.0, name = _('Kneeboard Next Page')  , category = _('Kneeboard')},
--{combos = {{key = '['}}                           ,             down = 3002, cockpit_device_id  = 100, value_down = 1.0, name = _('Kneeboard Previous Page'), category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RShift'}}},             down = iCommandPlaneShowKneeboard,    name = _('Kneeboard ON/OFF'), category = _('Kneeboard')},
{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RAlt'}}}  ,             down = iCommandPlaneShowKneeboard, up = iCommandPlaneShowKneeboard ,value_down = 1.0,value_up = -1.0, name = _('Kneeboard glance view')  , category = _('Kneeboard')},
--{combos = {{key = 'K', reformers = {'RCtrl'}}} ,             down = 3003    , cockpit_device_id  = 100,value_down = 1.0, name = _('Kneeboard current position mark point')  , category = _('Kneeboard')},
},
}

 

This seems to work. Can you try?

 

@NineLine: The fact that multiple common files contain the same lines of code seems to cause conflicts. Sometimes it seems to work fine, and sometimes it causes issues with kneeboard commands. Our friend @impalor encountered the issue first with the M2000, then with the SU-33. I encountered it with the AV-8BNA. See attached screen capture.

The commands with the red dots do not work. My first thought was "conflict with UI Layer", but it's nothing to do with that.

The issue obviously does not originate from any of these modules but from the duplicated common commands. I'm afraid a developer will have to look into this. It looks like a bit of a mess to me and I cannot make sense of this duplication.

Edited August 10, 2021 by LeCuvier
typo

[TAW_Impalor]

1 hour ago, LeCuvier said:

This seems to work. Can you try?

Good job! I tried, but was still getting a conflict for RCtrl-K in most modules. I just cleared it everywhere since never use. For my Harrier the "[" and "]" were also messed up because for some reason they were explicitly added in Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input\AV8BNA\keyboard\Keyboard.diff.lua. Clearing and then assigning defaults fixed that too. So, it is not just the two files you mentioned can conflict with each other, but each aircraft's .diff.lua may have an error inside!

 

I attached an OvGME-friendly zip if anyone wants to try your fix. 

 

Kneeboard Fix.zip

Edited August 10, 2021 by impalor