bk90 and the new cbu87/103 changes

[LazyBoot]

Will any of the new cb87/103 changes apply to the bk90? Or will HB at least make sure it performs comparatively to the other similar weapons?

 

 

[IronMike]

We will see what of it will be made available to us, and when we can implement it, if it will be. If it is a WIP item for ED (I did not read the thread carefully yet), 3rd parties usually have to wait, until their internal process is finished - for good reasons ofc.

Possible also that this is not an issue for us, as the BK-90s have a set release altitude and were tuned for that. We will investigate.

Edited September 21, 2021 by IronMike

[QuiGon]

I gotta say that I don't see a big issue with the BK90 in this regard. In my experience it is already performing much better in regards to killing things than pretty much any other cluster bomb in DCS (apart from the smart CBU-97/105 of course). So I personally don't see much of an issue here, unlike there is with other cluster bombs in DCS.

 

Edit: I'm pretty much always using the MJ1 + MJ2 combined variant of the BK90, so my experience is based on this.

Edited September 23, 2021 by QuiGon

[Machalot]

12 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I gotta say that I don't see a big issue with the BK90 in this regard. In my experience it is already performing much better in regards to killing things than pretty much any other cluster bomb in DCS (apart from the smart CBU-97/105 of course). So I personally don't see much of an issue here, unlike there is with other cluster bombs in DCS.

 

Edit: I'm pretty much always using the MJ1 + MJ2 combined variant of the BK90, so my experience is based on this.

 

I agree, although even the BK90 can be frustrating.  I flew a SEAD mission on a multiplayer server to go destroy an SA-2 site, specifically the radar.  I planned a long, circuitous preplanned route with the waypoints points placed for convenient nav fixes.  I flew 15 minutes on the deck and used visual fixes to keep my nav state accurate enough to place BK90s on target.  I was able to ingress undetected and launch both of my BK90s (MJ1+2) from a safe distance.  They flew exactly over the target, exploded, and destroyed all the missiles and support vehicles, except the radar which was dead center in the explosion zone.  Mission unsuccessful.

[QuiGon]

15 minutes ago, Machalot said:

I agree, although even the BK90 can be frustrating.  I flew a SEAD mission on a multiplayer server to go destroy an SA-2 site, specifically the radar.  I planned a long, circuitous preplanned route with the waypoints points placed for convenient nav fixes.  I flew 15 minutes on the deck and used visual fixes to keep my nav state accurate enough to place BK90s on target.  I was able to ingress undetected and launch both of my BK90s (MJ1+2) from a safe distance.  They flew exactly over the target, exploded, and destroyed all the missiles and support vehicles, except the radar which was dead center in the explosion zone.  Mission unsuccessful.

 

Haha, yeah, this is some really bad luck then, as there is no and should not be any guarantee that it will take out every unit in its area of effect. I did a very similar mission 3 weeks ago against a HAWK site and the two BK90s that I launched at the site took it out completely.

[LazyBoot]

5 hours ago, QuiGon said:

I gotta say that I don't see a big issue with the BK90 in this regard. In my experience it is already performing much better in regards to killing things than pretty much any other cluster bomb in DCS (apart from the smart CBU-97/105 of course). So I personally don't see much of an issue here, unlike there is with other cluster bombs in DCS.

 

Edit: I'm pretty much always using the MJ1 + MJ2 combined variant of the BK90, so my experience is based on this.

 

 

On the other hand, here's a set of 4x BK90 (Mj2) only killing a single unit (and possibly some statics, since DCS or tacview doesn't record that)

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by LazyBoot

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, LazyBoot said:

On the other hand, here's a set of 4x BK90 (Mj2) only killing a single unit (and possibly some statics, since DCS or tacview doesn't record that)

 

Would be interesting to see the damage it caused on the remaining statics/units.

 

Some statics in DCS have odd damage modelling.

[LazyBoot]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Would be interesting to see the damage it caused on the remaining statics/units.

 

Some statics in DCS have odd damage modelling.

 

If it helps, here's what tacview shows (though it sadly doesn't show statics at all)

before:

 

after:

Edited September 23, 2021 by LazyBoot

[QuiGon]

35 minutes ago, LazyBoot said:

If it helps, here's what tacview shows (though it sadly doesn't show statics at all)

 

Unfortunately that doesn't really help, as TacView doesn't show the amount of damage on damaged units. I bet most of them are heavily damaged and quiet impaired in their combat effectiveness.

[IronMike]

F10 view shows the damage bar.

But yeah, no cluster munition guarantess you that all the units would get killed. It is an area weapon, not a pin point strike weapon. Either way, that sam site is screwed when it gets hit, and irl, everyone there would be toast and/or out of business, no matter what and how many units would get hit.

[LazyBoot]

34 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

Unfortunately that doesn't really help, as TacView doesn't show the amount of damage on damaged units. I bet most of them are heavily damaged and quiet impaired in their combat effectiveness.

 

Sadly, the F10 view showed hardly any damage to the vehicles.

[QuiGon]

36 minutes ago, LazyBoot said:

Sadly, the F10 view showed hardly any damage to the vehicles.

 

Hmm, were they static objects or just stationary units?

[LazyBoot]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Hmm, were they static objects or just stationary units?

only the helicopters were statics, the rest normal units

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, LazyBoot said:

only the helicopters were statics, the rest normal units

 

Did you use the MJ1 or MJ2 or combined variant of the BK90?

[NineLine]

Just to hopefully help IronMike out here, the changes being made are specific to the CBU-87/103 and its specific sub-munition, and how its delivered from the aircraft, settings and such. It really wont impact any other weapon unless they use that sub-munition, and even then, many of the changes were about the pattern and such from the settings in the aircraft and the container. 

[LazyBoot]

5 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

Did you use the MJ1 or MJ2 or combined variant of the BK90?

MJ2 (I believe I mentioned that earlier)

 

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just to hopefully help IronMike out here, the changes being made are specific to the CBU-87/103 and its specific sub-munition, and how its delivered from the aircraft, settings and such. It really wont impact any other weapon unless they use that sub-munition, and even then, many of the changes were about the pattern and such from the settings in the aircraft and the container. 

I understand that, my original question was more relating to if similar issues also affected the BK90s.

[NineLine]

2 hours ago, LazyBoot said:

I understand that, my original question was more relating to if similar issues also affected the BK90s.

I think, and IronMike can correct me if I am wrong, but their team should have access to debug tools, if not I am sure they can work with someone at ED to test patterns and sub-munitions, I am sure they have already, I think that at times these weapons are considered more than they are, I know on our clusters we have a 100% detonation on all of the CEBs, I dont know that is the case in real life.

[QuiGon]

4 hours ago, LazyBoot said:

MJ2 (I believe I mentioned that earlier)

 

This might explain it then. The MJ2 variant only has 24 projectiles per weapon and thus is much less likely to hit as many targets as the MJ1 which has 72 projectiles. That's why I usually prefer the combined variant (MJ1 + MJ2), which is a good compromise between armor penetration and the number of projectiles as the amount of projectiles is somewhere inbetween the MJ1 and MJ2 variants.

Edited September 24, 2021 by QuiGon

[IDontLikeBigbrother]

The explosive damage of the entire dcs is somehow strange though, like a 1000 pound bomb need to precisely hit a target to destroy it, the splatter damage is really small.